Cardinal Woelki on Pope Leo - "He doesn't act in a hurtful or personally humiliating manner."

Did you vote for Prevost, Cardinal?

Cardinal Woelki of Cologne was one of three Germans to participate in the conclave. He discusses whether there were any disputes before the election of Leo XIV and what he thinks of the new pope.

DIE ZEIT: Cardinal, you traveled to the conclave as one of 133 papal electors. Besides you, only two other Germans were allowed to vote: the former head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Gerhard Ludwig Müller, and Munich Archbishop Reinhard Marx. How was it in Rome?

Rainer Maria Woelki: It was beautiful, but exhausting. The reason for the trip was, first of all, the death of Pope Francis, then came the funeral ceremonies, and then there were ten days until the election. In the pre-conclave, I was most impressed by the young cardinals who were attending for the first time, and the very elderly who came to our assembly every day in wheelchairs or with the help of crutches.

ZEIT: 90-year-old Cardinal Oswald Gracias, Archbishop of Mumbai and long-time head of the Indian Bishops' Conference, traveled from far away. Which reunion were you particularly pleased about?

Woelki: The reunion with my friend Cardinal Cleemis, Major Archbishop of Trivandrum, also an Indian. We like each other very much. Since we became Cardinals together in 2012, we have also visited each other.

ZEIT: The pre-Conclave was apparently quite boring at first.

Woelki: There were some very long treatises, but then the discussion gained momentum, and it became controversial.

ZEIT: Was there a dispute?

Woelki: No. I'm not allowed to comment on the content; that's subject to our confidentiality obligations. But clearly different positions existed side by side. In the end, we were all happy that we have a Pope.

ZEIT: Was there a danger that you wouldn't agree on one?

Woelki: No. Without a Pope, there is no Catholic Church. The office of St. Peter is a constitutive part of it. Anything else is unthinkable.

ZEIT: Were you surprised that Robert Francis Prevost was elected, and so quickly?

Woelki: Yes. Actually, I was. I hadn't expected him, even though he had been mentioned beforehand. Everyone relied on Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin. With only four ballots, you can imagine that Cardinal Prevost quickly found the necessary two-thirds majority.

ZEIT: Why him?

Woelki: That's certainly because many of us know him as the head of the Dicastery for Bishops, and apparently they experienced him as I did: as a spiritual, devout person who can listen attentively. He advances a cause through intelligent questioning. He is engaging and connects. He doesn't act in a hurtful or personally humiliating manner.

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ZEIT: How often have you met him in the past?

Woelki: In his role as head of the Dicastery of Bishops, I met him three times. He was always extremely approachable and open. I felt understood.

ZEIT: Hand on heart, Cardinal. Who was your favorite before entering the conclave?

Woelki: I'll keep that to myself and remain silent, as the electoral regulations require. I'm simply pleased with how quickly we found the man Christ wanted us to choose in this hour and in this difficult time.

ZEIT: Did you vote for Prevost?

Woelki: God knows that – and I do. That'll stay between us.

ZEIT: What was it like sitting in the Sistine Chapel? Nothing against Cologne Cathedral, but you don't normally have access to the Sistine Chapel, which is part of the Vatican Museums, just like you.

Woelki: When you sit beneath Michelangelo's magnificent mural, the seriousness of the matter becomes clear again: You're not electing a chancellor, but making a decision with the Last Judgment in mind. On Friday morning, at the service with the new pope, it was a different feeling: We all signaled to him that he could count on our support.

ZEIT: That sounds good, but his predecessor, Francis, was practically tormented by recalcitrant bishops; they always had something to complain about. Some even called him a heretic behind closed doors.

Woelki: Unfortunately, disloyalty is a bad trait in people: As long as everything goes as hoped, you remain loyal. If things don't, you feel threatened. But believe me, the applause in the Sistine Chapel for the new Pope was spontaneous and brotherly.

ZEIT: Speaking of brothers. What did you think of Sister Raffaella Petrini, the head of the governorate, who was the first woman to help organize the conclave and who participated in the Mass today in the Sistine Chapel?

Woelki: Sister Raffaella Petrini has long caught my eye because we sit together in the Apsa, the administration of the Holy See's goods. I greatly value her expertise. My encounters with her are always cordial. However, she wasn't present at the Conclave itself.

ZEIT: Could there perhaps be a female Pope one day?

Woelki: At present, that's hard to imagine, because Episcopal ordination is a prerequisite for the papacy.

ZEIT: Is Leo XIV a leftist, as most newspapers write, or more of a centrist, as many members of the order say?

Woelki: He is a man of faith who keeps the confession of Jesus as Savior alive. Political categories really don't fit bishops. What matters to us is whether we live up to the Gospel. It may be that the American Robert Prevost, with his commitment to migrants, stands in contrast to President Trump, but not because Prevost is politically left-wing, but because, based on his faith, he recognizes the image of God in every human being.

ZEIT: He sent a letter to the German bishops criticizing their "Synodal Council." You were never a friend of this council either. Were you pleased by Prevost's criticism?

Woelki: I don't remember whether Cardinal Prevost wrote that. There were indeed talks between the German Bishops' Conference and the Curia. Rome criticized the Germans and wanted changes. However, Francis already had his own distanced view of the synodal path; he liked to speak of the "so-called" synodal path.

ZEIT: You offered your resignation as archbishop to the Holy See a few years ago. Pope Francis didn't respond. Is Leo XIV now making your decision?

Woelki: According to Canon Law, my offer of resignation was already ineffective after three months.

ZEIT: Your perjury proceedings in Cologne have just been dropped. But not all of the charges seem to have been dismissed. Why were you still given conditions?

Woelki: The fact that the proceedings were dropped means I neither lied nor committed perjury. Period.

ZEIT: Robert Prevost is accused of ignoring victims of abuse. What do you think about that?

Woelki: I don't know any details, but I'm sure he wouldn't have accepted the office if he had been aware of any guilt.

ZEIT: What must the Pope do now?

Woelki: He must proclaim Christ and unite Catholics in difficult times. He must be the Rock upon which Christ built his Church, thereby strengthening people and giving them guidance. His name sets a direction: Leo XIII was deeply connected to the Augustinian Order, from which Prevost comes. Social issues played a central role. He knows what poverty, war, and displacement mean. In the pre-conclave period, a cardinal reported that his archipelago is threatened with disappearance due to climate change. The fact that Leo XIV introduced himself with the greeting of the Risen Christ, "Peace be with you!", shows that he knows how much our world needs this message.

ZEIT: Even before and during the Conclave, you lived in the Vatican guesthouse Santa Marta. What was that like?

Woelki: I've known the guesthouse for a long time; living there is always like coming home for me. During the conclave, there's a completely normal atmosphere; people meet over meals and sit together casually. We were assigned our rooms by lot.

ZEIT: Did you have a window overlooking St. Peter's Basilica?

Woelki: No, there was no view; everything was sealed. But I had two books with me. One by the Portuguese Archbishop Bartholomäus Martyribus, who wrote about the duties of a bishop 500 years ago. And Joachim Fest's childhood memoirs: I didn't.have a view.

ZEIT: Were there any kind of coalition talks during the breaks before the Conclave?

Woelki: There was coffee, tramezzini, water, and juice. We indulged in them and discussed the situation. Also about people.

ZEIT: You received your doctorate in Rome and, as archbishop, often visited the Vatican. What do you like about the city?

Woelki: I like the sea near Ostia, where I sometimes have lunch after coming from the airport. And I like the Roman ice cream at Giolitti, but this time the line was too long for me.

ZEIT: Your favorite ice cream?

Woelki: Zabbaione and Pistachio.

ZEIT: Your favorite restaurant?

Woelki: Lots.

ZEIT: Do you also eat Pizza Diavolo?

Woelki: No, it's too spicy for me. I prefer Pizza Spinaci.

ZEIT: Which do you prefer: St. Peter's Basilica or the Sistine Chapel?

Woelki: Both in their own time.

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