Cardinal Archbishop of Madrid denies Cardinal Müller is a heretic

"One arrives at the conclave with the names of candidates in mind, but one also allows oneself to be surprised."

The Archbishop of Madrid's ballot will be one of the 133 that will determine, starting this Wednesday, who will be the 267th Pope of the Catholic Church.

He puts down the phone for a moment, then immediately answers another call, and then another until, finally, he can answer us. Cardinal José Cobo, Archbishop of Madrid, is deeply involved in the deliberations that the cardinals of the Catholic Church are holding these days in Rome. In just two days, next Wednesday, he will lock himself with the other 132 cardinal electors in the magnificent Sistine Chapel, and there he will have no opportunity to communicate with the outside world. One of those 133 men will be the 267th Pope of the Catholic Church. - The mayor of Madrid, José Luis Martínez-Almeida, has told you that you don't need to get a return ticket to the capital...

- Yes, that's what he said...!

- We'll see in a few days. Let's talk about the conclave: Cardinal Burke has asked Catholics to redouble their prayers "because of the seriousness of the situation" surrounding the conclave. Are things in Rome becoming so turbulent?

- Well, that's not our experience. I think what's happening is that the conclave is showing everyone's positions. Everyone has seen, and bishops are coming from one side or cardinals from another, from different backgrounds around the world. And I think the diversity within the life of the Church is also very clear. But it's not seen with aggression, or even with polarization on our part. At least, I haven't perceived it that way.

- But the American cardinal must have seen something that must have worried him greatly. You literally said "the gravity of the situation"...

- Well, I imagine the gravity comes from the seriousness of this moment, right? We definitely have a responsibility, which is what's overwhelming, and I think we all feel it. But the first thing is to listen to God, because God already knows the Pope there will be. We have to listen to Him to choose, not the Pope we want, but the one God wants. And on the other hand, we also have to listen to the current moment in which the Church is living, where we also have to make an effort to dislodge ourselves a little from each individual's position in order to converge on a position of what the Church as a whole needs. From that moment on, I understand that this is serious, it's serious in that sense of profound responsibility.

- To understand how the upcoming elections will work, you, for example, of the other 132 electors, how many could you say you knew well before Francis's death?

- Well, about half. Being in several congregations—I participate in the Eastern Bishops' Congregation, I've been to the Synod, and also in the Laity Congregation—that allows us to work with many cardinals, to have meetings with them, meaning that those of us who already have a commission in Rome know each other. Then, in the Consistory, when we've had other appointments, we've also seen each other.

With those from Latin America, we always have more contact: when traveling to Rome, many pass through Madrid and everyone stops by to say hello, and we get to know each other. Yes, I think there is some acquaintance, but certainly not with everyone, not with everyone. This is a fact for this conclave: we will need more time to fine-tune our positions.

- In recent days, I imagine you've had the opportunity to meet some with whom you hadn't met until now. Is there anyone who has particularly caught your attention?

- No, because I think, in one way or another, we know each other's background. I mean, we don't have any aces up our sleeves, right? It's a very normal meeting and encounter. As I say, we all come prepared from home, and that reassures us a little.

Nuances and Positions

- So, there isn't one that particularly caught your attention...

- No, I'm not surprised by each one. As each one speaks, we see the nuances, the contributions they make, where they come from or the position they have, what they build, what they can build, their profile, and whether you identify more or less with what they say or not. That's what we're seeing.

- "They come prepared from home," he just told us. Do they also come with the name of the candidate they're going to vote for?

- Well, I think these days we let ourselves be surprised. Each one may have a battery of names in mind, but we're seeing, because we also listen a lot to the people who are speaking. I imagine that, once we enter the conclave, we'll fine-tune things a bit more.

- A very practical matter: How do you understand each other? You come from more than 70 countries. Now, I imagine you'll have translators, but then in the conclave, there can't be any...

- Basically, between Italian and English. We all understand each other there, and if not, there's always someone to translate. If there's someone who doesn't know Italian, we translate from Spanish to Italian for them. It's easy.

Orthodox and Heretics

- Cardinal Müller has stated recently that "the issue is not between conservatives and liberals, but between orthodoxy and heresy." Are there positions among some cardinals that could be bordering on heresy?

- Well, I don't know; I think Müller isn't a heretic... 

Perhaps those headlines are taken out of context. I refer to what Benedict himself said in 1967. Ratzinger stated that in the Church there are no conservatives and progressives, but rather conservatives and missionaries, and that the opposite of a conservative is a missionary. That is, looking to the future and converging on what God is asking of the Church today. Certainly, in the meetings we didn't perceive that virulence, as is often shown in newspaper headlines.

- Can you confirm or deny whether Cardinal Parolin needed medical attention a few days ago for an alleged rise in blood pressure, as some Italian media reported?

- Well, I don't know. I know it was reported in the media, but Cardinal Parolin was there without any problems. This past Saturday I had him at Mass with me, and he is very healthy. I haven't asked him either, but he seemed fine. Very healthy.

The Valley of the Fallen

- That's good news. Returning to Spain, a topic in which you have played a certain role. Are you still "perplexed" by the indignant attitude some people have expressed toward you regarding the bishops' position regarding the Valley of the Fallen?

- Well, I'm still perplexed. I mean, I'm still perplexed by those who believe the Church is the subject of this story. Because the one who decides and sets the time has, in any case, been the government. We have simply entered into dialogue to defend the Church's presence there, but we haven't said when it should be done, or what should be done, or why it should be done. The Church has a prayerful presence there.

- But it was surprising that, after the unanimity we were told there was among all the bishops on the issue of the Valley, a couple of days later a statement came out from the Archdiocese of Madrid stating that the Government had not considered the Church regarding the competition to "redefine" the Valley...

- The nuance is that we didn't participate in the competition. What we did participate in was the delimitation of the spaces, but neither the Church knew when nor under what conditions that competition would be held, because we didn't call it. The only thing we did participate in the negotiations was to say that the [Benedictine] community must be there and the Basilica must be there, and the religious elements must be respected. We are always somewhat at the mercy of what the Government says. What I do say is that we have defended our presence there. Nothing more. 

- The one who did seem a bit "perplexed" was Brother Santiago Cantera, former Prior of the Valley, when he revealed that his departure from the abbey was "forced" and that it "violated his Benedictine vow of stability." Who forced this on him, and why?

- Well, we will have to ask your presiding Abbot, and the abbot of Leyre, and the abbot of Silos, who are your superiors. We all know that the Benedictine rule is totally autonomous, it is independent, and all the steps taken have to be done in accordance with the Rule. I don't know the exact procedures of that rule, but everything was done according to the rule itself.

- It was, therefore, an internal matter and an exclusive decision of the Benedictine Order...

- Of course, the Benedictine order has a very specific jurisdiction when it comes to changes, transfers, the election of the prior, of the abbot? It responds to very specific guidelines that they have to follow with their abbot president. We cannot interfere. The Archbishop of Madrid does not have that jurisdiction.

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