Cardinal Hollerich claims synod is about synodality not about radical change. Admits no one will be happy and slams conservative Catholics.

In two weeks, the Roman meeting of the Synod of Bishops will begin. Cardinal Jean-Claude Hollerich is one of its organisers. In an interview, he explains what it will be about - and what it will not be about. Although there are some "hot potatoes" on the agenda, it should actually be about other things, he says.

"It's not a synod about ordination of priests, ordination of deacons of women. It is not a synod on homosexuality. It's a synod on synodality," says Cardinal Jean-Claude Hollerich. He is the General Relator of the World Synod and thus also responsible for sorting out the themes of the event. In this interview, the Archbishop of Luxembourg talks about the next weeks in Rome, controversial issues in the European Church and his assessment of the Catholic Church in Germany.  

Question: The big meeting of the World Synod starts in Rome on 4 October. It has never been held in this form before. Experts speak of the largest co-determination process in world history. Why do we need such a new form of synod now?

Jean-Claude Cardinal Hollerich (Archbishop of Luxembourg and General Relator of the World Synod of Bishops): I believe that it is the Spirit of God that calls us to synodality. It is also given in the texts of Vatican II, in "Lumen gentium". The synod is nothing new. It was instituted by Paul VI, and Paul VI already said that it is an instrument that can be further developed. This further development has taken place with Pope Francis.

Question: We have already seen some of this in the last Synods.

Hollerich: The Synod corresponds to the collegiality of the bishops in "Lumen gentium" - after the Second Vatican Council, who advise the Pope. In "Lumen Gentium" there is also the general priesthood of the laity, the role of the baptised as the people of God. This now flows more into synodality.

This does not mean that the bishops are no longer bishops. The bishops still have the full responsibility of bishops. The laity are not bishops, but one is a bishop among the people of God and belongs to the people of God oneself. One has the mandate to lead the people of God. That is not possible if I do not know, love and appreciate the People of God. As the Pope said, if I do not have the "smell of the stable".

That's where synodality is an opportunity. I also believe that it is quite providential (preordained) that we are dealing with this at this time. This is the time of great polarisation, not only in the church. We see it in politics as well.

This morning I saw on the news how strong a party like the AfD has become in Germany and how other parties like the SPD are weakening. I see how a party like the CDU, if I now call the two people's parties, does not benefit from the weakness of the government. That's where the extremes come up.

The same in France: we have Marine Le Pen on one side, Mélenchon on the other. The extremes are becoming very strong, polarisation is taking place throughout society. In fact, society, i.e. modern democracy, should be talking about how we can live democracy in the future in these new times. Democracy in Germany has, I believe, been very much based on the educated middle classes. And that is in the process of disappearing and crumbling away. The consequences of this are not yet clear to us all.

The Church has functioned very differently in different times. Church history teaches us that. A pure top-down church no longer works today. There must be a "from the bottom up" and a "from the top down". Both must be dynamically intertwined. The shepherds must listen to the people of God. The people of God must also respect the decisions of the shepherds. Only together can we as the people of God move through our time into the future. I believe that as a Church we are perhaps even better placed than the state.

Question: You are the General Relator, which means that you are charged with gathering all the feedback. It is guaranteed that a lot of things get lost when you try to put together this incredible mass of opinions and points of view from all over the world into one event.

Hollerich: It is about a discernment of spirits. This is a spiritual process that the members of the Synod have been charged with. It is about discerning where the Spirit of God is calling us and how He wants the Church to be positioned for this. That is the goal of the Synod. All other issues are only tangentially related to that.

It is not a synod about ordination of priests, ordination of deacons of women. It is not a Synod on homosexuality. It is a Synod on synodality. There are, of course, many points being raised. And listening is something we have discovered in this synodal process. Listening to what happened at each level, but also the feedback from the higher levels to the lower levels. It's a constant dynamic of change that's going on.

And the non-bishops at the Synod of Bishops are also there as witnesses to the synodal process. They are people who have experienced the synodal process, so that we can continue to listen to what these witnesses have to tell us. Of course, the whole experience of the bishops must also flow into this, the pastoral experience, but also that the bishops are also responsible for the teaching of the Church. The whole thing should bring about a new harmony.

The Holy Father often says: The Holy Spirit first of all confuses everything. You can see that on the day of Pentecost. You think they are drunk - and so on. And then afterwards a new harmony emerges. The individual participant in the synod must of course be ready for conversion, for personal conversion and for synodal conversion. If I go in with the viewpoint: I already know everything, then I am not listening, then I cannot carry out a discernment of spirits. And if I listen to the right and the left and give myself into this process together with the right and the left and pray, then a new harmony will also come out.

Question: You said it is not a synod on women's priesthood and homosexuality. Last year you wrote a letter together with Cardinal Grech, who reminded us of this. Now there are various voices, including those of those in positions of responsibility in the Church, who say that these are precisely the issues that are important to clarify in order to move into the future as a synodal Church. That is exactly what the Spirit wants to tell us, what should change in the Church.

Hollerich: Yes, but a synod cannot do everything. One has to set priorities, which is the goal of the Synod. Personally, I believe that if the Church really sets out on its journey, a great many questions will arise in our time. The Church will have to find answers to these questions. But not all of them in this Synod. One must not overload the Synod with expectations, otherwise one will be disappointed. That does not mean that nothing will happen.

Question: But the idea of synodality is, as you say, that you don't go in with a preconceived opinion. But then what should we expect from it? Should we expect that there will be new church organisational structures?

Hollerich: That could well be. But watch out: This is only the first part of the Synod of Bishops. It will continue in 2024. I hope that at the end of this Synod there will be a short paper, a kind of roadmap, on how to proceed. It will be about which topics will have to be addressed in 2024, but also about how to continue until 2024.

Question: That means that this has not yet been decided?

Hollerich: No, that is for the Synod to decide. We don't want to give any guidelines.

Question: You say that it is not yet clear which way we will go and what will change. But then you can't rule out these conflict issues, such as new rules on celibacy.

Hollerich: You can't rule anything out. But if you read the continental documents, it is not the case that everyone is calling for the ordination of women. Nor is it the case that everyone wants a certain recognition of homosexual partnerships. That must also be taken into account, one must listen to all voices.

"The shepherds must listen to the people of God. The people of God must also respect the decisions of the shepherds. Only together can we as the people of God go through our time into the future. I believe that as a Church we are even perhaps better placed than the state to do that." - Quote: Cardinal Jean-Claude Hollerich

Question: So that means that as urgent as these issues are for us in Europe, for example, it is also part of synodality that we do not only start from ourselves?

Hollerich: Yes, the continental stage of the World Synod in Prague was a very important experience for me. There is a progressive Church like in Germany, then there are Churches like in Poland, which are positioned quite differently, which perceive as heresy what seems normal for German Catholics.

I must honestly say that I was a little afraid of this meeting. But we managed to set out together. With tensions, and we endured the tensions. We have the hope that tensions can also bear fruit. The Assembly wanted such meetings to be possible and to be held in the future. That is, they want to walk the path together. And that was a wonderful experience for me.

Question: Now there are these tensions from both sides. What I always find very astonishing is that some can say about one and the same process that this is the end of the Catholic Church because we are falling away from our teachings, and others say that nothing will change anyway because it doesn't go far enough. In principle, you have to disappoint both sides. You can't come out and say that everyone is satisfied.

Hollerich: That will hardly work. I actually find the criticism from the conservative side outrageous. That means that I, as an individual, determine what is Catholic, and I don't mind at all if I'm at odds with the Pope in doing so?! As a Catholic, I have to listen to the Magisterium of the Church. For some people, the Magisterium apparently stops with the election of Pope Francis. That is to say, they no longer perceive all that the Pope has already taught us and all that, for me too, belongs to the Magisterium of the Church.

I remember when it was said: one must also obey the ordinary Magisterium. The very people who loudly demanded it at the time now disobey this Magisterium when the nuances are different from what they themselves would say. That does not show greatness. That disappoints me.

Question: But that also means that you have to go into the process with the expectation that you cannot take everyone along and that people will fall by the wayside.

Hollerich: I hope that all people have the "sensus ecclesiae" (the Church's sense of faith, editor's note) and really perceive what the Pope has said. When the Pope says "todos, todos, todos" ("all, all, all"), I cannot go and say: No, that's not true.

The Pope has already pointed out a few times that there has been a development in doctrine over time, for example with regard to slavery or the death penalty. The teaching has not changed, but time brings a new clarity to the teaching. There are points in the teaching that are more important than others.

I cannot put everything on the level of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, on the level of the incarnation. Some things are also illuminated anew. That is why there is theology. That is why there are new approaches. Otherwise we would have to lock up all Catholics in a museum where they are only allowed to think the way they did in the past.

At the Amazon Synod of Bishops, the participants were almost exclusively bishops. This will change at the World Synod. For the first time, some lay men and women will consult with the bishops.

Question: You know Germany, you grew up on the German border, you studied in Munich and Frankfurt. Can you understand the pressing desire for reform from Germany?

Hollerich: I understand the desire for reform. But you can't prescribe reforms in the Church. The Synodal Way is also, as the Pope has said a few times, something different from the synodal process. Not everyone is asked, but only various representatives.

For me, it was always about sharing power. We are not supposed to have power in the Church. There is authority in the church. There is ministry in the church. Ministry is then translated in German as "Dienst/Amt", where I am not quite happy with "Amt". If I now want to share power structures that have grown historically, that do not correspond to the Gospel, then it is not yet a conversion to the Gospel.

Question: But what would that be?

Hollerich: To renounce power, to live authority in the church, to live service in the church.

Question: That sounds understandable in theory. But how should that look in practice?

Hollerich: The German Church has a huge apparatus of civil servants. And the number of Catholics is getting smaller and smaller. The German Church will have the great task of reducing the administration. No state has ever succeeded in doing that. That will be a huge task. Otherwise the German Church will be administered to death. And I believe in the integrity of everyone who works in the administration, that they do it with a good conscience, for the Church, for Jesus Christ. I don't deny that at all.

But there is a huge loss of faith in Germany. And when the conservative side points out that a reform of the structures will not stop this loss of faith, they are right. We have to find a new proclamation, we have to find a new language in which to proclaim the Gospel. This is also part of the concerns of the Synodal Way, but it is not sufficiently emphasised, the whole missionary existence of the Church.

A synodal church must proclaim Jesus Christ and be at the service of the world. This is not only the German Church, I have to change myself as well. It is also self-criticism when I speak of the service of the Bishops. But there we are called to change. I believe that a properly synodal Church can do that.

Time will find solutions, also for the German Church. I am not at all excited. The Holy Spirit works in time and always works in reality. And I trust in the good Spirit of God. I trust Jesus Christ to take care of his Church, that it is his Church and that he will bring us together.

Question: The real conflict will lie above all in different mentalities. People in Germany think differently than people in the Vatican.

Hollerich: Certainly, and I must first recognise that there are these differences in mentality. If I condemn the other person only for what he has expressed as an opinion - I first have to try to understand why he says that. I have to realise that someone is speaking out of fear, that someone is speaking out of hopelessness or that the mentalities are different. This understanding is extremely important.

But I could also see in the Continental Assemblies that there are common points. The Spirit of God is really at work. He is leading together. The Spirit of God leads together, it does not divide.

Question: Pope Francis likes to say that the Synod should not be a parliament.

Hollerich: Yes, I agree with that.

Question: Of course, it is quite difficult to explain to an outsider what the difference is, because both the synod and a parliament are voting bodies. Now the American priest Louis Cameli from Chicago has asked in an article for the National Catholic Reporter whether, if one were to think further, one should not leave out the vote completely, especially since we are experiencing a new form of synod anyway.

Hollerich: That is a possibility, but it is up to the Synod to decide. There have also been church assemblies where things have been confirmed by applause. When Pope Leo's letter was read out at the Council of Chalcedon, there was acclamation for it. The majority recognised themselves in it.

I don't think it's about a majority. It is not a parliament. We see who has the majority, and the others have to do it that way. That's the way it is with the state. If a single member of parliament is more in favour of something, the laws change. In the church, we have to find harmony. For harmony, you can't ask for a majority of 50 percent plus one. You need a consensus. Not everyone has to be in it, even at Vatican II there were still dissenting voices. But it has to be something that is supported by the vast majority.

Question: It would be possible to avoid this basic conflict by saying: Since we are now tackling a completely new form of Synod, we will also reconsider the question of voting.

Hollerich: Yes. One must also consider that the Synod has a consultative function, that the vote does not mean that it will be done this way or that way, but that it entrusts the Pope with this opinion.

The Pope will also be present at the plenary sessions of the Synod, and he will then hear everything. The whole process of the Synod is important, not just the result.

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