Majority of Catholics now think like Protestants and no longer believe that the Church is Holy, even if it is in the Creed

The Protestant sociologist of religion Detlef Pollack (67) considers the Catholic Church to be reformable to a limited extent. The Synodal Path would lead to "a radically different church" and would be a break with its core. He considers women's priesthood possible, but not the abolition of celibacy. Pollack blames the media for the negative image of the Church.

Professor Pollack, is the Catholic Church reformable?

Detlef Pollack: Certainly it is. But there are limits - and some demands formulated in the context of the Synodal Path and the Synodal process go beyond these limits.

In what way?

Pollack: The concern of the Catholic Church is to make something of the glory of God visible in the world. The Catholic Church sees itself as a sacramental institution that is holy. As an institution instituted by God, it administers the sacraments and insists that in the administration of the sacraments something takes place in which the presence of God in the world can be experienced by people.

"The ordained clergy has a special role in the understanding of the Church."

And for this experience of God's presence, the Church and the clergy are needed as mediators between this world and the next?

Pollack: Exactly. Experiencing the presence of God depends on the existence of authorised, consecrated persons who administer the sacraments. In the understanding of the Church, these are the priests. They in turn are authorised by apostolic succession. They therefore ultimately trace their sacramental authority back to Christ himself. The authority of priests is also derived from the ordination they receive from others who already possess this sacramental authority. It is through ordination and the link to succession that they are authorised to assume this mediating role between the world and God.

So the clergy is essential for the Church's self-understanding?

Pollack: The ordained clergy has a special role in the understanding of the Church. If, in the context of the synodal process, it is now demanded that the difference between consecrated and non-consecrated be abolished, if it is said that the priesthood is at best the priesthood of all believers or of all the baptised, then one blurs what constitutes the core of the Catholic Church.

Protected inside the church: the divine mystery of which the Catholic Church is the mediatrix.

Is it important that the clergy is male?

Pollack: No, it is not important. What is important, however, is celibacy, because with it the clergy, whether male or female, carries out a separation from the world, without which there can be no sacredness.

Is the historical picture not more complex? The monarchist Pope-Church and the strict separation of church and world are products of the 19th century...

Pollack: I have to disagree! I believe that this is a convenient ideology to legitimise church reforms. People blame the evil 19th century for the hierarchical structure of the Church. But the 19th century church is the result of centuries of efforts to build an institution based on subordination and superordination.

But still, in the Church of the Middle Ages, lay men and women could participate in important processes, including mediating between this world and the next. The prayers of nuns were considered particularly powerful. Kings and emperors, for example, convened and presided over synods. The boundaries were not as clear as they are today, were they?

Pollack: At the same time, the Church always clearly demarcated itself from the world. In the 11th century, the reform papacy draws an increasingly clear distinction between the Church and the world. The Church insists that only it can decide who can be ordained, who can become bishop, abbot and abbess. It insists that only consecrated persons can consecrate others and fiercely resists interference by emperors and kings. In this way, she frees herself from her dependence on secular authorities and her integration into feudally structured society.

"The priests ritually regulate access to the core".

But nevertheless, kings in France, for example, continue to appoint bishops and abbesses until modern times...

Pollack: Yes, of course. But even then, this practice deviated from what the Church actually aspired to. The relationship between pope and king was correspondingly conflictual. The Church has always been concerned with the preservation of the sacred goods it administers and which must be protected from profane access. The distinction between clergy and laity also serves this protection. A mantle, as it were, is placed around the sacred core of the Church. And the priests are the ones who ritually regulate access to the core.

That is, if the Church were to relax the boundaries between consecrated and non-consecrated in the course of the synodal process, would it weaken its own core?

Pollack: A loosening is not impossible. But one has to be aware in the discussion that the Church has done everything over centuries to strengthen this boundary. This is not only charismatically secured, but also according to canon law. The doctrine of the church and the sacraments is also the characteristic that distinguishes it from the Protestant churches. Against Rome's hierocratic claim to power, Luther introduces the idea of the priesthood of all the baptised. A corresponding opening on the part of the Catholic Church would level this difference.

"The vast majority of Catholics no longer believe that the Church is holy".

With every new abuse scandal in the Catholic Church, the number of people leaving the Reformed Church increases. To put it another way - the differentiation between Catholic and Protestant no longer exists in the understanding of most people, does it?

Pollack: The vast majority of Catholics in Germany today no longer believe that the Church is holy, even if it is written so in the creed. As a sociologist of religion, I am not in a position to make recommendations to the Church. But from an observational, analytical perspective, I must state: The reform vision of many Catholics, including those involved in the Synodal Path, leads to a church that is radically different at its core from the one they have historically had.

So are Europe's reform Catholics inwardly Protestant without knowing it?

Pollack: I would say that the vast majority of Catholics in Germany actually think Protestant. In a few months, the new church membership survey of the Protestant Church in Germany, which I worked on, will be published. In it, between 86 and 88 percent of all respondents say that all religions are equally right and wrong. It is striking that we could not measure any difference between the members of the denominations and the non-denominational. A special consciousness among Catholics was also not found.

How can the official Church, which continues to see itself as a holy mediator, meet this tension - between self-understanding and expectations of others?

Pollack: The Church can move with the times, and it does so. However, it has to justify changes from within, i.e. from its tradition and the Bible. As a sociologist, I know that even entrenched institutions are capable of reforming themselves if they reflect on their tradition. This is also true for the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, there is a strong tension between the spirit of the times and what the Church is.

In an interview with the Kölner Stadt-Anzeiger, you blamed the media for the negative image of the Catholic Church. What do you mean by that?

Pollack: I am astonished that the media accuse the bishops of being indifferent to the mass apostasy from the Church, that they are even sitting on their high horse and are not even striving for serious reforms in the Church. I think that is completely unrealistic and sometimes even malicious.

So the media are writing the decline of the Church?

Pollack: Not that, but I have the feeling that the media are serving a cliché. A cliché that may have been true 20 years ago, but is no longer true today. For years the German bishops have been saying: "It hurts us when people leave the church". "We must take the reasons seriously, and we must have respect for those who no longer want to belong to us." These are the bishops' repeated statements, and the media make of it: "The bishops still haven't got it." I believe that the media do not see or do not want to see the cultural change that has taken place among the bishops in the last 20 years.

Why not?

Pollack: Probably because they assume that writing against evil, elitist bishops who supposedly don't care about anything will bring more attention. I would like to see more differentiated reporting on the subject.

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