Progressive Jesuit criticises Jesuit Pope

Jesuit priest in Easter interview: "Pope Francis often decides slowly and with little transparency"

A Jesuit priest takes a hard line on the Catholic establishment. 

What has the head of the Catholic Church achieved in his ten years in office? Bascha Mika talks to the Jesuit and theologian Hans Waldenfels.

Father Waldenfels, before Easter the suffering and death of Jesus is commemorated. When you look at the state of the Catholic Church - are we experiencing the suffering and death of a religious community here?

I am a believer and I hope that this does not happen. But the fact is that today a lot of believers are becoming misguided about the Church. That they find the institution untrustworthy and leave it - also out of pain. At the same time, it cannot be overlooked that many people have a longing for spiritual guidance. But the church is also failing here. At the moment, it is not showing the way.

The Pope, as head of the Church, cannot be innocent of this. Like you, Francis is a Jesuit. Are you a fan of your brother?

We were all thrilled when Jorge Bergoglio became Pope. It was surprising that a Jesuit should hold this office - especially since we promise never to seek ecclesiastical office. But Francis was already a bishop in Argentina, then a cardinal, and he must have been so convincing in the conclave with his basic ideas that he was actually elected.

No red shoes, plain glasses, off-the-peg vestments - Francis, as his name suggests, is more oriented towards the mendicant monk Francis of Assisi than towards Ignatius of Loyola, the founder of your order.

In retrospect, this also reveals part of the problem. What does Francis actually stand for? He set out with great vigour to renew the Church, and in doing so, following Ignatius, he invoked the inner stirrings of the Spirit. But one cannot wait for the Holy Spirit and use that as an excuse for not making decisions. Francis often does not make decisions, he evades them. That is why there is great chaos in the Church at the moment.

"Ultimately, the Pope is a lonely man," says Jesuit priest Hans Waldenfels. 

The Pope wanted to stand up for women, divorced people, homosexuals. He took office ten years ago. Did he jump as a tiger and land as a bedside rug?

It's too easy. If one wants to judge Francis correctly, one must not forget his predecessor. When Pope Benedict announced his resignation on a Carnival Monday, nobody took it seriously. There was also a lot of cover-up surrounding this resignation. And it was not good at all how Benedict then resigned. He should have taken off his white skirt, given up his Papal name and left Rome. He didn't do any of that. He wanted to remain silent, but kept on talking. Francis always tried not to let any dissonance arise between the two. But he was unable to implement many things because Benedict took a different position.

So was Benedict a kind of counter-pope?

Many conservatives have seen it that way. Let's take the Amazon Synod, which took place in the Vatican in 2019, as an example. The majority of the Synod Fathers were in favour of allowing ordination in exceptions for married men because of the great shortage of priests. Francis would certainly have agreed. But just at that time a book came out with a contribution by Benedict. In it, he insists that celibacy is immutable. Benedict's position found great public resonance - although as Professor Ratzinger in Tübingen he had still proclaimed that the Church was becoming smaller and that there had to be married men as priests.

You have written two books about Francis. How would you outline his personality?

What strikes me is that Biblical interpretation is not his strong point. I miss in him that he engages intensively with the Holy Scriptures. That would also help him with the women's issue, for example. I am not interested in how the women's issue is discussed in socio-political terms, but in what is written in the Holy Scriptures. And there you have the famous Mary of Magdala. Jesus appeared to her first after the Resurrection, not to his disciples. It was this woman who was commissioned to witness the Resurrection. So women have an important role to play in the Church!

In what do you see Pope Francis' greatest failure?

Getting the Church going properly. There are two topics that we constantly deal with within the Church - sexuality and finances. Francis once said something very important about this: the Church must not revolve around itself, otherwise it will get sick. But that is exactly what the Catholic Church has been doing for years. It revolves around structures and its own things instead of dealing with people, with the poor and the sick and those who no longer have a place in the world. But the Church has a mission ...

... but gives the impression that it is mainly concerned with maintaining its power ...

You are right, it is a question of power. The infallibility of the Pope, which was proclaimed at the first Vatican Council in 1870, is also about nothing other than power. This dogma has an influence on all the other questions and problems that the Church grapples with.

And what is Francis' greatest merit?

That he opened up the Church! The opening he proclaimed remains - and that is right! It is only the implementation that is lacking. I don't know if Francis still has the strength to change that. He is a very sick man. Certain people don't like to hear that, but that's the way it is.

Is that why there is speculation about his resignation?

He is a bit two-faced himself. On the one hand, he is going to Fumone - that is, to the town where in the Middle Ages the first Pope stayed after his resignation. And because he is a man of symbols, everyone naturally wondered if that was supposed to be a hint. On the other hand, he denies thinking of resigning. His contradictoriness puts an additional strain on the situation of the Church.

About the person

Hans Waldenfels was born in Essen in 1931 and entered the Jesuit Order in 1951; he was ordained priest in 1963. He studied philosophy, theology and philosophy of religion; after his habilitation, he succeeded Josef Ratzinger, later Pope Benedict, as chair of fundamental theology at the University of Bonn. Waldenfels was an advisor to the German Bishops' Conference and has written numerous books.

His most recent book, "Resurrection. On the Way to a New Man and a New Creation" was published in 2022. 

The contradictory nature is also evident elsewhere?

You bet it does. There is the Archbishop of Paris, Michel Aupetit, who is deposed overnight because he allegedly had an affair with a woman. Apparently, just looking at a woman the wrong way is a bad thing. (Laughs) But after Francis has signed the resignation himself, he answers during a flight when asked about Aupetit: A great injustice has been done to him. Yes, what then? Is Aupetit innocent or was it right to dismiss him?

What should have happened to Cardinal Woelki in Cologne long ago ...

Yes, Francis' decisions are rather opaque. Some officials are replaced very quickly - like Aupetit or Bishop Bode of Osnabrück - while he simply lets the others continue. Yet it is clear: if a bishop like Woelki has lost the trust of his flock, then he should go! Or be gone. The fact that the Pope has still not deposed him is a great damage to our Church.

Does Francis even care enough about the abuse crimes?

It is not a question of caring, but of making decisions. In some cases around the world he has intervened immediately, in others he lets it go - even if the ministers are guilty of abuse. In my opinion, Woelki should have listened to the faithful long ago. This is not about abuse, but about his standing among the people. And regardless of what Woelki has done wrong - that is no basis. People look away when they see him.

The Vatican expert Marco Politi has written two books about Francis. One is called "Francis Among Wolves", the other "The Francis Conspiracy". Sounds a bit like a sinister conspiracy à la Dan Brown. Is Francis really a victim of the clergy?

It sounds bad, but in principle Politi is right. Francis is not a victim, but there are people - like the former Vatican diplomat Vigano - who publicly oppose him and spread conspiracy theories. Ultimately, the Pope is a lonely man. He does have a very wide-ranging staff of advisors and listens to many people. Recently, for example, the Minister President of North Rhine-Westphalia, Hendrik Wüst. But what did Mr Wüst have to say in view of all the grief in Cologne? Francis is very close to the people, but what consequences does that have? He often decides slowly and with little transparency.

The German Synodal Path, a discussion format between bishops and laity, demands: Blessing for homosexual couples, permission for women to preach, examination of compulsory celibacy. But the Vatican does not want to allow what has been decided in this country. What do you say to this obvious disregard for the faithful?

The Synodal Path has its pitfalls. But when I hear Cardinal Hollerich of Luxembourg say on the subject of the blessing of homosexuals, celibacy and the role of women that it is possible to talk about it, indeed that the ban on the ordination of women advocated by John Paul II should be reconsidered, that gives us hope. After all, Hollerich is not just anyone, but the General Relator - i.e. the main rapporteur - at the next major Synod of Bishops, which is to run for two years. That's all I can ask of our Church at the moment.

Which I'm sure many believers see differently ... One more question about you. You entered the Jesuit Order as a young man ...

... at the age of 19, after graduating from high school. That was in 1951, a year in which 28 men joined the Order in the Lower German Province alone. Today there are two or three per year in the entire European Union ...

Would you choose a life as a Jesuit again today?

In 1951, I hadn't yet seen very much of the world. But entry into the order begins with two years of novitiate. This period also includes the so-called experiments, such as service in the hospital. I am very happy that one of these experiments for me was the six-week work in a coal mine. In Wattenscheid, underground, at the "Fröhliche Morgensonne" colliery. The miners were very interested in someone who wants to become a priest and had a standard question for me on all subjects: What does your nature say? In other words, what about your sexuality? (Laughs) But to answer your question: Even if the Order is different today - yes, I would go that way again.

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