Danger of Third World War according to senior Vatican diplomat

"We are very concerned about Germany".

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Are tensions over the Synodal Way straining diplomatic relations between the Holy See and Germany?  Archbishop Paul Richard Gallagher discusses this.  Vatican neutrality in the Ukraine war is also a topic.

Himmelklar: You have been in office since 2014.  In that time, the world has changed radically. Tensions have increased rapidly on all continents.  Trump, Brexit, Corona and Ukraine.  Is the world a different place today than when you took office?

Archbishop Paul Richard Gallagher (Vatican Secretary for Relations with States): The world is the same in many ways.  What has deteriorated - and I hope I have not contributed to this - is the state that many countries are in.  There are more conflicts, tensions and polarisation.  There is more hatred.  There is great desperation due to lack of food and problems in accessing the basic necessities of life.

So the situation has worsened and become more dangerous.  If you take a map of the world and mark each trouble spot with a red dot, there is a danger that these dots will connect.  What happens in Ukraine of course also has an impact on the Middle East.  What happens in the Middle East has an impact on North Africa.  North Africa has an impact on the sub-Saharan region and so on.  That is the great danger.

Himmelklar: Pope Francis calls this the "Third World War in instalments".  Is not that a bit too dramatic?

Gallagher: It is indeed dramatic and also shocked people when he first said it.  With this statement he tried to wake people up, in an almost prophetic fashion.  If you look at the development of the last few years, I believe that he was right.  It is a warning to the world that these dangers exist.

Archbishop Paul Richard Gallagher

"The war in Ukraine was the end of a certain post-war innocence in Europe."

The war in Ukraine was the end of a certain post-war innocence in Europe.  To some extent, the war in the Balkans was already such a wake-up call.  Unfortunately, we in Europe have not responded adequately to the problems that have emerged.

At the moment, there is a danger that once the Ukraine war is over, we will hope that everything will go back to the way it was before.  That will not happen.  A full-blown war in Europe is possible, despite all the institutions, despite all the progress.  We have taken peace for granted for too long and stopped working for it - personally, individually, collectively and institutionally.  Peace must be created and strengthened.  We have failed to do so.

Himmelklar: Does not this remind you of the situation before the First World War?  Many trouble spots and rising tensions.  At that time, everything was heading towards the greatest catastrophe in the history of humankind.

Gallagher: They say that the world slid into this war.  That it was accepted that a great war was inevitable.  That should be a warning for us today.  I think that there are parallels. What we have to do is to avoid this slippage.  We have to be pro-active when it comes to avoiding wars and to anticipate them. That is the order of the day.

Himmelklar: You yourself visited Ukraine a few weeks ago.  What effect did that have on you?

Gallagher: I saw very different sides of this war.  You really have to admire the Ukrainian people for their resilience and their commitment. At the same time, it is very different to see this suffering with your own eyes instead of just on television.  I also started to realise how complex the political situation in the country actually is.  I saw the problems for the political leadership.

And quite simply, war is a reality that affects the lives of ordinary people.  You and me.  People are in the middle of a situation they did not wish for or choose.  The cost of this war, the cost in lives and to the youth is simply terrifying. That is why we must continue to work for peace and also see it as a possible reality.

Himmelklar: The role of the Vatican in this conflict is interesting.  Critics say that the Holy See, with its neutrality, does not side with the victims.  To date, the Pope has not named Russia as the aggressor.  You did exactly that during your visit to Ukraine.  How difficult is it for you to make such a statement?  Is this co-ordinated with the Pope?  Is this a deliberate political strategy that this statement comes from the second row and not from the Pope?

Gallagher: My priority - with this statement as well as in general - is to show encouragement and compassion and  to support them in their suffering and in their resistance to aggression.

We are trying to follow the line that the Holy See has been setting more or less for centuries.  Let us remember the letter of Benedict XV before the First World War that one should not take one side or the other.

The Holy See has a universal mission.  It is not that we do not see who are the aggressors and who are the victims.  The Holy Father sees that conflicts are complicated.  You cannot simply speak of good and evil, it is not that simple.  That is precisely why our approach is precisely to work towards peace.  Our approach is to make contacts and possibly to offer ourselves as mediators.

Some ask us whether we as the Holy See are neutral.  We are not in our reaction to the suffering in Ukraine.  However, politically we see ourselves as neutral.  We are just like other countries in the world, some of which even have that in their constitution.  What I am saying is that we are neutral, but not ethically indifferent.  We are not saying that we want nothing to do with this terrible conflict.  We are saying: we are here.  What can we do?

What the Holy See never does is to make alliances.  If you ally with someone, you ally against someone.  Again, we do not approve of anything Russia does. However, at the same time, it is necessary for us to keep a certain degree of openness in order to contribute to the resolution of the conflict.

Himmelklar: I understand that.  But is this approach still up to date, especially when even states like Switzerland, Norway or Sweden are abandoning their neutrality?  Does not this neutrality also instrumentalise the Vatican?  The Moscow Patriarchate, for example, talks about the Nuncio being one of the few diplomats still in contact with them and advertises this as support for the Vatican.  - So: isn't the Vatican exacerbating the conflict through its own restraint?

Gallagher: I think that we offer Kyiv the greatest support and the most intensive contacts. I think the Holy Father's position regarding his dissatisfaction and criticism of the Moscow Patriarchate is also very clear.  Look at the video conference with Patriarch Cyril I, which was attended by Pope Francis and Cardinal Koch.

I understand that people always want you to choose sides in a conflict.  That has never helped us in history.  The Holy See offers support, especially to Ukraine.  On the other hand, we have to keep a certain degree of openness to all sides in ecumenical and political dialogue.

Himmelklar: There are rumours that Pope Francis wants to visit Kyiv.  What are the plans for this?

Gallagher: The will is there but there are no specific plans yet.  The first thing to come is the trip to Canada.  That is a big challenge, also for the Holy Father's health.  We have to see how it goes.  We cannot commit ourselves or accept an invitation for that long.  If Canada goes reasonably well, the planning could proceed relatively quickly.

It is not easy to get to Kyiv or L’viv.  The journey takes two days.  You only get a little way by aeroplane, then you have to continue by car or train and that is a long journey.  And then you have to come back again.  So you cannot rush this decision.

Himmelklar: There are rumours of August.  Would that be realistic?

Gallagher: I think that it is possible but I'm not sure. Before we get back from Canada, it is very hard to say. I think the Pope would like to get this started as soon as possible.

Himmelklar: We were talking about war and peace earlier.  The Catholic Church is now committed to peace as a solution to conflict.  But now there is also criticism of this stance.  An emphasis on peace is described as naïve.  After all, there would be other solutions to a conflict. How do you respond?

Gallagher: I think every alternative to peace comes at a price.  The price of human life, destruction and also the psychological consequences for a country and the traumas of men and women who have fought in war. The Church must insist here that its work - the work of all people of good will - must be directed towards peace.

We here in Rome, of course, fully understand that Ukrainian Catholics have a patriotic duty to support and defend their country and their government.  We offer support for that.  The Pope is convinced of this.  It is also a fundamental part of our Christian ethics and conviction that peace must be the goal.  Christ says: Blessed are the peacemakers.  There are many ethical questions that can be interpreted more broadly but not this one.

I understand that Ukrainians are finding it difficult to think about peace right now.  The suffering is too great for that.  But fundamentally we Christians have to be peacemakers.  That is already written in the Gospel.  If we did not stand up for peace, it would have much more dramatic consequences for the whole world.

Himmelklar: Let us look at Germany.  Last year, after many years, there was a change in government. Angela Merkel was always said to have a good and friendly relationship with Pope Francis. How did you experience that from an internal perspective?

Gallagher: The Pope and the former Chancellor certainly had a very good working relationship.  They were always able to talk to each other very openly and clearly.  When the Holy Father was in Strasbourg and spoke of Europe as an "old lady", the Chancellor did not really like that.  She also told him that very clearly.  I was not in office at the time but that is what I was told.

I am very happy about how the relationship with Germany has developed in recent years.  When I started in 2014, the current Federal President Steinmeier was Foreign Minister and we had a good relationship with him.  My impression is that the dialogue with Germany is intensifying.  For example, I was the last official visitor to Foreign Minister Heiko Maas.  Two hours after our appointment, he received his successor.

A few months earlier, we had his State Secretary here in Rome.  So relations are good.  We have a very uncomplicated and fluid exchange with the German Ambassador to the Holy See.  We have a very experienced Nuncio in Berlin. So on a political level, we can work together very well.  We cannot always accept every invitation from the German government or church but we do our best and are quite happy with the relations.

Himmelklar: Now we have a new government, the first time since 2005 not led by a Christian party.  Olaf Scholz as Chancellor has actively left the Church.  Does that make relations more difficult?

Gallagher: No, I do not think so.  But we have to build up relations a bit more.  There has been a lot going on in the months since the new Chancellor took office.  Understandably, he has had more important things to do.  So has the Foreign Minister.  I hope to meet her in the not-too-distant future. One of her staff was here a few weeks ago.

So church affiliation does not matter there.  Everyone has their own personal story.  That makes it sometimes easier, sometimes more complicated.  What is much more important for us in the Vatican is professionalism.  For example, we are very happy when a government sends us a trained diplomat.  They know the rules of the game.  We know what to expect.  So I am sure that the relationship will continue to develop well.

Himmelklar: To be more specific, the fact that the Chancellor has left the Church is not a problem for the Holy See?

Gallagher: Absolutely not.  We have a long tradition of working with the most diverse systems, from liberal democracies to authoritarian states or monarchies.  We have also experienced the most diverse personalities.  We do not want to be prejudiced.  What is of decisive importance is simply who and what is represented by the representatives.  In our case, the universal Church; whereas the German government represents the interests of the German nation.

Sometimes, indeed, we have better relations with less religious politicians than with very devout and convinced Catholics.  We also have good relations with agnostics or atheists.  It simply depends on the chemistry.  The human factor is very important.

Himmelklar: Are there lines of conflict with the German government?  For example, we have just changed part of our abortion law.

Gallagher: These issues are usually more up to the churches in the individual countries to deal with the legislation.  In Germany, the system of government is very complex.

Of course, there are points of conflict.  The German government has points that it raises with the Holy See that are about the position of the Church in Germany.  For example, the question of abuse was one of the first points we talked about with the previous Ambassador here.  It was a very heated debate in Germany.  We expressed great understanding because coming to terms with the abuse is also a priority of the Holy See.

Himmelklar: For almost ten years, Germany has been asking why the Pope does not visit us.  Obviously, he has other priorities.  Crisis countries and nations that are not in the focus of the media.  But have there ever been such considerations?

Gallagher: Representatives of the large European nations often bring up one thing: we, too, belong to the periphery when it comes to the position of the Church, the practice of faith.  The Holy Father has a desire to bring smaller nations to the fore, groupings of people that are on the periphery and fragile states.  At the moment, he is travelling to Canada, which is a big country, but it is about a specific ethnic group, it is about the Indigenous people.  So it is not only the country that matters but also the context.  Of course, there is also the political level but people are always in the foreground. Canada is a journey of penance as he said in the Angelus prayer.  It is penance for the Church's treatment of Indigenous people in Catholic schools.

Himmelklar: The same argument could be made for victims of abuse in Germany or France.

Gallagher: Of course.  Time, perhaps, will bring that about. Maybe, the Pope will still decide to make a visit to Germany. Of course, the time he still has is limited.  However, that is his approach which is to visit the periphery as he defines it.  Moreover, I think that has left a significant impression in recent years.  In the end, you cannot accept every invitation and satisfy everyone.

Himmelklar: Now there are the relationships with the governments of a country and also with the national church.  It is no secret that the atmosphere between the Vatican and the German Bishops' Conference is tense.  Does that also influence the diplomatic level and your work?

Gallagher: Pope Francis says that in the end everything has a mutual influence on each other.  You cannot look at these things separately.  The conflicts have an influence.  We are very concerned about the direction the Church in Germany seems to be taking at the moment.  Of course, this also has an influence on our work.  It has an influence on how the German state sees the Holy See and the Catholic Church - and vice versa, how we see Germany and also the German Church.

Himmelklar: Does it matter that Germany is one of the financially strongest particular Churches?

Gallagher: No, I do not think so.  That is a question that the German Church perhaps has to ask itself. Whether this system, which has developed over time and brings with it considerable resources, has really served the Church so well.

However, that does not matter for our work, at least not as far as our diplomatic work here is concerned.