Archbishop Zollitsch thinks we are all guilty for the financial crisis

And there was me thinking it was Gordon Brown's tripartite regulation of the City of London and the EU Financial Package that was pushed through when the UK had Presidency of the EU when Gordon Brown was Chancellor.

Archbishop Zollitsch: "We must become more modest".

In the current crisis, Archbishop Robert Zollitsch considers modesty and thinking of others to be important values. Our need is at a high level compared to others, the Archbishop admonishes and calls on politicians to think more about the social aspects of life.

Archbishop Robert Zollitsch in conversation with Bettina Klein | 09.06.2009

Bettina Klein: In these days and weeks, the economic and financial crisis also raises questions about a necessary or possible change of values in society. How does the Catholic Church see the situation in Germany at the moment? I talked about this with Archbishop Robert Zollitsch, he is the President of the German Catholic Bishops' Conference, and I first asked him whether the situation in this country at the moment actually fills him with more concern, or whether it is more important to him that we are still one of the richest countries in the world.

Robert Zollitsch: Of course it fills me with concern, especially when I think of the people whose jobs are endangered, and in many cases families are involved, and I also think of the elderly who are uncertain how their old age will be provided for, and one must share this concern. Of course, our need is at a high level; that also helps to think of the other people who are less well off. But at the same time, I hope that this economic crisis will make us think again and discover what we really live on.

Klein: What do we really live on?

Zollitsch: It is values that are not just money now. It's not just about making 15 or 25 per cent profit when I invest money, but thinking about what is worth living for. It is indeed something that points beyond this world. For me, that is the question of the meaning of life. But when I think about society, it's also about thinking about others. We live from solidarity, we live from the fact that everyone gets what is due to them, and we live from the fact that I think of others and do not want to assert myself alone in the elbow society. In Christian terms, we live by everyone thinking of others, and thus also by love of our neighbour.

Klein: And we are experiencing a discussion about values in society, about the question of whether we have to redefine values, whether we have to change something fundamental about our system, about living together, about doing business. Can the Catholic Church translate the requirements of this current crisis into political demands?

Zollitsch: Yes, I am convinced. We have to rediscover solidarity, we have to rediscover that I have to think of the other, and we also have to rediscover that economically things cannot go on like this forever. We really have to tighten our belts and be satisfied with less, but at the same time we have to think of the others, not that we always want to continue at the expense of the poorer countries, but that we have to think of them. A new situation is emerging in which we are thinking about the peoples of the Third World and saying that we must become more modest.

Klein: But even in this country, the question of solidarity leads to very different considerations. Solidarity, to take one example, with those currently threatened by unemployment and also with companies that may be dependent on state funds, contrasts with solidarity with future generations, for example, who will have to pay off the immense debts that are now being taken on. Does the Catholic Church have an answer, an advice that it can give to those currently acting politically and also those under political pressure in this regard?

Zollitsch: Of course, we have warned for a very long time against too much debt, because then this debt has to be borne by the next generation and that this then inhibits the next generation. That's why we always have to look at how we can find a balance, how I can help people now and also help them sensibly and responsibly and not just selectively, so that it's a quick help that perhaps doesn't count after the next election, but rather we have to learn much more to think in the long term, and that's also about the next generations, and I think we've been thinking too much about ourselves lately and too little about the future generations.

Klein: Does this imply a certain criticism of the current government's actions?

Zollitsch: Of course we try to help as many people as possible, and that's good, but whether we always have the right perspective with regard to the future and the next generation is something I question.

Klein: It is a balancing of different values. Do you have the feeling that at the moment too little thought is being given to future generations, too little to the future?

Zollitsch: We have been thinking too little about the future and future generations for too long, and the current crisis will certainly lead us to rethink this, and after the crisis is overcome, a new policy must come, also a new form of economy, which is much more strongly based on solidarity, sustainability and a view of future generations.

Klein: What does that mean exactly? Do you have an idea of what a perhaps reformed society, a perhaps reformed market economy might look like?

Zollitsch: On the one hand, we have to become more modest, and then we need guard rails - guard rails that include social aspects. A market economy is only of value to us if it is a social market economy, if it thinks of others, and there we need guidelines, guard rails in the sense of solidarity, also in the sense that the weaker, who cannot achieve so much, find their place, find their livelihood, and that is something eminently human and Christian, and at the same time it is necessary that this society does not become an elbow society, but a society in which the majority of our people really know they are in good hands.

Klein: I would like to ask two more questions. Guard rails, what do we mean by that? What do you mean?

Zollitsch: For example, when I invest money, I can't just make a profit, I also have to ask myself who makes this profit, or when I invest money, I also ask myself about sustainability, about how it benefits others. We all know about the social obligation of property. Even money that I have, finances, are socially obligated. I must always think of others in what I do.

Klein: Keyword elbow society. Appeals against this, appeals for moderation from both Christian churches and not only this one, I think, are not new. On the other hand, of course, the so-called elbow system has been or still is a driving force. Give us an example where the so-called elbow system needs to be reined in? Where is that possible?

Zollitsch: It is right and necessary that the economy wants to make profits; otherwise we cannot preserve jobs. But if I suggest to someone that he could make 15 or even 25 per cent profit with his money in the medium term, then he has forgotten something essential, because that can only work in the short term and then others have to pay. This is at the expense of others and clear upper limits must be set here. Or if a manager leads a company to the brink of ruin, then he cannot expect to receive high severance pay, but rather one must consider how far he will be held accountable for what he has caused.

Klein: If we take what you have just outlined as the starting point, will the party with the "C" in its name, the CDU or also the CSU, will these parties, which are currently in government, perhaps will still be in government after the Bundestag elections, live up to this claim? Is enough happening concretely in this direction that you intended?

Zollitsch: In the discussions I have had with the parties, I have always appealed to them to put more emphasis on social issues, to show people that they have a place in this society, that they are safe in this society, and that is why I have always demanded that they reconsider social issues, that they reconsider how people can find a home and know that I am being taken care of, that it is not just about profit, that the focus is on people and not on money.

Klein: Some people are accusing the Christian Democratic Union of social democratisation at the moment. If I understand you correctly, you would not go along with this criticism?

Zollitsch: The point is that the social aspect is emphasised more, that we approach people more. The other is a question that comes up quickly, if only because it is actually about the question of state subsidies, and there I am rather reserved, because I think that the economy must first of all be challenged, supported, so that it contributes decisively to overcoming this crisis from its own resources.

Klein: Keyword Catholic social teaching. Can you think of an example at the moment where it would be timely today and where it should be implemented more strongly?

Zollitsch: When I think of the elderly, they need to know that if I have worked all my life, my pension must also be secure. That is something important. Or we must remember that a family also needs the necessities of life. And I have the impression that our society is not family-friendly enough, not child-friendly enough. There is a challenge here. Having children must not mean poverty, but we must also think about the future, and that is a very, very big challenge for us.

Klein: Archbishop, I would like to talk about a point that is causing astonishment at the moment, not only within the Catholic Church, but above all within the Catholic Church, and that is with regard to the Fraternity of Saint Pius X. At the end of the month, they want to ordain three new priests near Regensburg. The Bishop of Regensburg sees this as a violation of Canon Law, since the Vatican has forbidden ordinations despite the lifting of excommunications. Is the Catholic Church powerless with regard to the Fraternity of Saint Pius X?

Zollitsch: The Pope wanted to set an example and reach out to the Fraternity of Saint Pius X by readmitting the four excommunicated bishops, but at the same time had them declare that they thus have no office and no function in the Church. As a result, Canon Law applies to them and according to Canon Law they cannot legally ordain priests, and that is a violation of canon law, is also a violation of the rights of the Bishop of Regensburg, and that, I must say, is for me an affront to the unity of the Church.

Klein: The Fraternity of Saint Pius X themselves say, and they emphasised it again in a newsletter at the end of May, that there was never any talk of a general renunciation of priestly ordinations in the negotiations with the Vatican. One has the impression that it is now a case of testimony against testimony?

Zollitsch: These negotiations have not yet been conducted. They have only just begun in theological matters. But if the Cardinal Secretary of State declares on behalf of the Pope that these four bishops have no office and no function in the Church, then it is made clear that they are not allowed to ordain priests.

Klein: Do you expect another clear word from the Vatican?

Zollitsch: I hope that this provocation by the Fraternity of Saint Pius X will be met with a clear response, because this discussion within the Catholic Church and beyond is unsettling many people.

Klein: Archbishop, thank you very much for the interview.

Zollitsch: Thank you also.

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