Cardinal Lehmann: I don't believe in Church.
From the programme Cross Questioned on the 7th March. Video of the whole of the programme here. Minute 43 onwards!!
Interviewer
There are more and more people who don’t believe in the Church or Christendom, who are skeptical…..
......
Lehmann
I do not believe in Church and also not
Interviewer interrupts
You don’t believe in Church
Lehmann
No, I believe in God
One can only believe in God in the end
Loud applause
I believe the Church is a tool, a place, and a means where God can realize what he wants to do in this time. The Church belongs only to a second rank, beneath God.
In the last resort, one can only believe in God because the Church is only a means to an end. The Church is holy and at the same the Church of sinners. One cannot talk about a belief in church, as one can talk about the belief in God. This is theologically the case and has been believed over many hundreds of years.
The Cardinal also speculated that one day the Catholic Church will cease to exist.
The atheist who he was debating wondered how this fitted with Church teaching.
A Church-hostile website has said that he is a "heretic", a word that does not fall easily from the lips of such a source.
The ever-excellent kreuz.netalso reporting on this story says that the reaction of the Pope and the other German bishops will be interesting.
The Cardinal himself on who and what has influenced him, not least Karl Rahner, who had the idea that "anonymous Christianity" was possible.
Cathcon provides a reality check for Cardinal Lehmann from
The Nicene Creed.
Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.
The Apostles' Creed
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum; sanctam ecclesiam catholicam; sanctorum communionem; remissionem peccatorum; carnis resurrectionem; vitam oeternam. Amen.
St. Cyprian
"No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother"
And further his flock in Germany pay a Church tax, as a result of their Catholicism, in case he has not noticed.
And finally,
The Church, in which he does not believe, made him a Cardinal.
Cardinal Lehmann who would not, it has been said, been a Cardinal apart for the intervention of the man on the right, Helmut Kohl, the former German Chancellor.
Interviewer
There are more and more people who don’t believe in the Church or Christendom, who are skeptical…..
......
Lehmann
I do not believe in Church and also not
Interviewer interrupts
You don’t believe in Church
Lehmann
No, I believe in God
One can only believe in God in the end
Loud applause
I believe the Church is a tool, a place, and a means where God can realize what he wants to do in this time. The Church belongs only to a second rank, beneath God.
In the last resort, one can only believe in God because the Church is only a means to an end. The Church is holy and at the same the Church of sinners. One cannot talk about a belief in church, as one can talk about the belief in God. This is theologically the case and has been believed over many hundreds of years.
The Cardinal also speculated that one day the Catholic Church will cease to exist.
The atheist who he was debating wondered how this fitted with Church teaching.
A Church-hostile website has said that he is a "heretic", a word that does not fall easily from the lips of such a source.
The ever-excellent kreuz.netalso reporting on this story says that the reaction of the Pope and the other German bishops will be interesting.
The Cardinal himself on who and what has influenced him, not least Karl Rahner, who had the idea that "anonymous Christianity" was possible.
Cathcon provides a reality check for Cardinal Lehmann from
The Nicene Creed.
Et unam, sanctam, catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.
The Apostles' Creed
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum; sanctam ecclesiam catholicam; sanctorum communionem; remissionem peccatorum; carnis resurrectionem; vitam oeternam. Amen.
St. Cyprian
"No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother"
And further his flock in Germany pay a Church tax, as a result of their Catholicism, in case he has not noticed.
And finally,
The Church, in which he does not believe, made him a Cardinal.
Cardinal Lehmann who would not, it has been said, been a Cardinal apart for the intervention of the man on the right, Helmut Kohl, the former German Chancellor.
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Comments
A few quotations. From a ninth century catechism: "We believe truly in the Holy Spirit because He is God, just as the Father and the Son. But it is understood that I believe that the Holy catholic Church exists. (credo esse)"
Another midaeval chatechism: "I believe in God: that is: I gather all my faith in Him. I believe that God exists, it is understood (credo Deum). I trust God (Credo Deo) is understood by these words."
St Albert the Great: "The sense of the words "I believe that the Holy Catholic Church exists is: I believe in the Holy Ghost who sanctifies the Catholic Church."
St Martin of Turin: "Therefore the Church is Holy and Catholic, because she rightly believes in God. We do not, therefore, say that you should believe in the Church as in God, but know that we say and said that, living in the Holy and Catholic Church, you should believe in God."
Notice that the creed says: "et in Spiritum Sanctum...et unam, sanctam, catholicam..."
Do you think this is on purpose?
I think we need some clarification to find out exactly what he said and whether in the German it is in any way ambiguous. Mr. Gillibrand, get right on it sir.
I cannot believe he said this, as a few hours ago, before I saw this, I wrote:
"Germany: I don't have the time to relate all the goings on in Germany since I wrote Digest, February 16th, but it is intense and intensifying. The Church in Germany is certainly divided. It's bad. Many Bishops seem to be trying (for the right reasons) to catch the Pope's eye. I am convinced the Holy Father is going to engineer the "horizontal promotion" or downright removal of Karl Cardinal Lehmann and weaken the progressives in Germany."
and will be paying him a nice cozy pension no doubt.