Controversial Jesuit, Father Martin gives interview in Germany. Discusses Bishop Overbeck and the Synodal Path

The Jesuit James Martin campaigns for LGBTQ people in the Catholic Church. However, he does not want to change the teaching of the church on this. He explains how both go together - and also says what he thinks of the Synodal Path in Germany.

What does the Pope think about LGBTQ people in the Church? Hardly anyone knows this better than the Jesuit James Martin from New York, who is in direct contact with Francis on the subject. He explains why he doesn't want to change anything in the Church's teaching on homosexuality and why the Pope is speaking to him of all people about the subject. But we also look at the Church in Germany, more precisely at Bishop Overbeck and the Synodal Path.

Question: You are one of the best-known activists for LGBTQ issues in the Church and you are even in contact with the Pope. It was not always like that. Why did you start getting involved in this topic in 2016?

James Martin SJ (Jesuit, author and LGBTQ activist): You may recall, in 2016, 49 people were killed when a shooting broke out at a nightclub called Pulse in Orlando, Florida. At that time I was very disappointed with the reaction of our bishops. That was very timid and little. Only a handful of bishops have spoken at all. Of those, only two or three even mentioned the terms LGBTQ or gay. Even in death, this communion is largely invisible to the Church.

Back then, I recorded a Facebook video that went viral. This led to an invitation to give a lecture and later to my book "Building a Bridge", which was also published in German. To be honest, I never thought this would be such a big deal. It is just a small book in which I do not in any way question the teaching of the Church. But the reactions were very intense: positive as well as negative. This then led to me doing pastoral work for the LGBTQ community. I'm sure God called me right there.

Question: Your work is quite controversial. There are several Facebook groups calling for the "conversion of James Martin" back to the True Faith. So you become a symbol – for both sides of the debate. What does that do to you?

Martin: That's a very strange situation. People may see it differently but I absolutely do not enjoy controversy. My previous books have dealt with subjects such as the saints, prayer, Jesus, Lourdes or worship. I don't really like being the centre of attention and creating controversy. In this case, however, this seems to be unavoidable. It triggers such strong emotions on both sides.

I think most of those who disagree with me haven't read my book and don't really pay attention to what I'm actually saying. It's not about doctrinal change for me, I just want to give these people a hand and listen to them. But even that is too much for some. Even listening to gay people in church is worth a ban on them.

So it is very unusual for me to be in such a public debate about this topic. Cardinal Müller recently criticized me in an interview in La Repubblica. You have to get used to it first. Especially since I have no idea how to react to something like that. As a simple priest, I can't contradict a cardinal, that wouldn't be right for a Jesuit. So I'm powerless here in a sense.

Question: What do people from the LGBTQ community tell you about your commitment? Are you happy to have such a prominent voice on your side? This is the first time that they have been heard and taken into account on such a large scale by the world church.

Martin: Yes, I think it is. In the beginning, however, some of them were irritated that I didn't question the church's teaching on the subject of homosexuality. In the meantime, however, many understand that, I don't want to say "all" now, and thus speak for all LGBTQ Catholics worldwide. I hear and read that my request is quite clear to them. I just want to start the discussion and get the church to listen to you. That's the most important. 

Question: You started volunteering your opinionin 2016. Did your opinion on the subject of homosexuality actually change during this time? Bishop Overbeck in Germany spoke very critically about homosexual people in the church in 2010, today he is one of their strongest supporters in the German church. He says that over time, through reflection, encounters and conversations, he has changed his point of view. Did you feel the same way or was it clear to you right from the start how you felt about this topic?

Martin: Actually, that was always clear to me. I have known and know so many LGBTQ Catholics who live lives of holiness and love. But I am very happy when people undergo these experiences - like Bishop Overbeck - and develop further. Pope Francis calls this a "culture of encounter," which is really just a complicated term for getting to know people plain and simple.

I always like to use a comparison here: married, heterosexual couples using birth control. By definition, these people do not follow Catholic teaching either. "Humanae vitae" has banned contraception - with the authority of a Papal Encyclical. But nobody says: how can you only have married people in your church who use birth control? How can you talk to people like that? According to surveys, 80 percent of the population in the USA has no problem with contraception. Why do we trust these people and their conscience? Answer: Because we know them. We understand their lives are complex. Therefore, we also understand their moral decision-making process. That's basically the same as what you just said about Bishop Overbeck. Over time he got to know people and learned to understand them and to trust their conscience decisions. So we should not condemn people, but simply try to understand them. The analogy with the couple using contraception can help us here.

Question: You have now emphasized several times that you do not question the Church's teaching on the subject of homosexuality. As a prominent Catholic voice, you fight for the rights of LGBTQ people but say that teachings such as abstinence should still apply. Here in Germany, many Catholics are demanding that this teaching has to change because it is discriminatory and far removed from real life. Why are you sticking with your point of view?

Martin: As a good Jesuit, let me differentiate a little here. I don't actually question the teaching for a number of reasons. I'm a Jesuit and a priest, if I spoke out against the teaching it would matter to many people, not just myself. The Jesuits of the United States, maybe in Germany too. So that's just not my role or position.

There are many people who question the Church's teaching and ask us to look at it from a different angle. The Bishops in Germany, the synodal path. Even bishops and also Cardinals in the USA. Cardinal McElroy has just said that the phrase that homosexual acts are "inherently wrong" should be removed from the Catechism. As a Jesuit, I cannot say such a thing.

I'm more in favor of just trusting the conscience of LGBTQ people. Most of them have already made up their minds on this subject, just as most married couples have on birth control. For me, it's much more important to give LGBTQ Catholics a voice and teach people to listen to those voices as well. I see that as my role. Even if I wanted to attack church teaching, as a Jesuit in my position I could not. There are limits to what I can and cannot say. I have to move within these limits.

And very important: I want to represent my position within the church. There are others who see it differently, but I want to try to move what is possible in the church today. I admit it's a bit of an odd position to be in. But there are enough people who question the teaching, so I don't have to do the same.

Question: So I understand that correctly, you are neither for nor against a change in teaching, but say that the focus has to be changed.

Martin: Absolutely. We must also ask ourselves: what exactly does the Church teach about homosexuality? These are these few lines in the catechism. But that's not the sum of the statements about homosexuality in the church. The doctrine of the Church is Jesus Christ reaching out to the outcasts of society. He did not condemn people, and that is also the teaching of the Church. The teaching of the Church is a man. Jesus Christ. In his deeds and encounters we see the most fundamental teaching of the Church. We must teach that too, not just the lines of the catechism. We missed that with LGBTQ people.

Let's get back to the married couple and the issue of contraception. If we ask what the teaching is, then the answer here is: contraception is forbidden. – Yes, that is part of the teaching, but that is not the core of our message. So I focus more on the message and the deeds of Jesus than constantly focusing on chastity and celibacy.

We must also be clear: there is not a single LGBTQ person in the world who does not understand what the Church teaches on the subject of homosexuality and abstinence. Rather, we should remind them of the other aspects of the Christian message.

"I'm surprised. From the courage and willingness to enter into conflict of the Germans, but also from the violent reaction of the Vatican.”

— Quote: James Martin on the conflict between the Synodal Path and the Vatican

Question: In recent years you have also been in contact with Pope Francis on this subject. This also made headlines in Germany. In 2019 you had a private audience and only recently there was an exchange of letters between you two that was made public. Do you think the Pope would agree with your reasoning? Of course you can't report from your private conversations, but is that also in the direction of his thoughts? There are also contradicting messages from the Vatican. The Pope says criminalizing homosexuality is wrong, we all know his quote "Who am I to judge anyone". On the other hand, the Vatican made it clear in a letter in 2021 that blessing celebrations are absolutely excluded.

Martin: I don't speak for the Pope. But I can say that his approach - as I see it - is primarily pastoral, not theological. He does not change the teaching, but the speech. It is pastoral and part of that pastoral approach is speaking out against injustices such as the criminalization of homosexuality. That's what a pastor does, he protects his church.

We see an enormous step forward in his way of approaching people. Francis has done more for LGBTQ people than any other pope in history. Maybe that's a sign of the times. In the last ten years alone, the situation of LGBTQ people has changed fundamentally, so it is no surprise that the church has responded to this as well. But the fact remains that he approaches these people. He was the first pope to use the word gay. You mentioned it, his most famous quote is, "Who am I to judge anyone?" Over the years he has sent letters of encouragement not only to me but to many people involved in the LGBTQ field. He tells parents not to throw their children out of the house and has spoken out against the criminalization of homosexuality. Such things are extraordinary for a pope.

We reported on our website that he also regularly meets transgender people. So he is doing his best to be pastoral and we have to give him some credit for that.

Question: Were you surprised when the Pope approached you and wanted to talk to you about such a sensitive issue as homosexuality?

Martin: I was surprised that the Pope even wanted to talk to me (laughs). I may have to reiterate: I'm just a humble Jesuit who writes books and works as an editor for America Magazine. I am neither Cardinal nor Archbishop nor Bishop. Nor am I a provincial or university president. It was a shock that the Pope spoke to me at all.

 I'm just a humble Jesuit 

Question: How did that come about?

Martin: Well, I'm an advisor to the Vatican's Communications Dicastery. The private audience was in 2019. I had had a little contact with him before that, mostly through small notes, short letters. When we had our planning conference with the Dicastery in 2019, a friend, a mutual friend, asked me if I would like to meet the Pope. Of course I said yes.

When we were at the Pope's with the entire dicastery, 200-300 people, I introduced myself and he asked if I would like to talk to him privately. We had a very impressive conversation of half an hour and then continued to exchange letters.

This meeting brought me a great deal of consolation. That was in the Apostolic Palace, the Vatican published photos of it. This is his way of showing people that the Pope himself wanted this meeting and wanted to make it public. It's all very unusual and I'm still impressed by it to this day. I feel a great deal of gratitude, not only for his personal encouragement, but also for the signal that this sends out to the LGBTQ community. He's genuinely concerned about the issue, as any good pastor would be.

Question: You just said a very important sentence. You say the Pope wanted your meeting to be public. Do you think there is a message in there for the public?

Martin: Absolutely. When I met him in November, the Vatican did the same. But you don't really have to interpret signs or be clairvoyant. He wrote really clear letters to so many people, not just me. You don't need these pictures as proof. He wrote about the closeness and love of God for our website, so you don't have to read between the lines to see what he thinks. It's all very pastoral, and that's his approach.

Question: What do you think about our synodal path in Germany? In March we held the last synodal assembly in Frankfurt, which, among other things, decided on a blessing for homosexual couples, which explicitly contradicts the will of the Vatican. That actually contradicts your approach of not questioning the teaching. The Germans want to go one step further.

Martin: First of all, I don't want to put myself on the same level as the entire Catholic Church in Germany. We must ask ourselves where the Holy Spirit is active. We need to see and understand that the Holy Spirit is present in the synodal path. Pope Francis said at one of his synods in the Vatican, I think it was the Synod on the Family, that it is absolutely not forbidden to speak about such subjects.

I'm a bit conflicted on this topic. First of all, I think it's wonderful that people in the church can exchange ideas so openly, even on such sensitive topics. It is in such things that the Holy Spirit is present.

It has become more and more clear to me over the last few years that people who have a problem with Pope Francis have a problem with synodality or discernment of spirits, that people who speak against Amoris laetitia and his other writings have a different focus. If you look beyond the political, sociological, ecclesiological, theological and even spiritual arguments, the basic problem is that many of these people simply do not believe in the working of the Holy Spirit in the individual human conscience. That is the difference. Pope Francis believes in it. As a Jesuit, former master of novices, as a spiritual director. He believes with a passion that the Holy Spirit lives and works in every single human being. We just have to listen to it. That's why we have to listen to the individual people and to communities like the church in Germany. So I think that explains a lot of the opposition to the Synodal Path. So I think it's great that these things are discussed openly and honestly, that people in Germany listen to the Holy Spirit. He doesn't speak down from above, he also speaks up from below, out of the people.

At the same time, I am a little surprised by the conflict that has arisen between Germany and the Vatican. I'm not quite sure how to answer that intelligently, but I'm surprised. From the courage and willingness to enter into conflict of the Germans, but also from the violent reaction of the Vatican. At the beginning of the World Synod, the Vatican said: Let us listen to the wishes and needs of Christians around the world. I see what the Germans are doing as a contribution to this. The Germans make an offer to the universal church. I hope that the World Synod will listen. But I'm not an expert on Germany or the Synodal Path, that's just my opinion as an outsider. On the one hand I'm happy about the openness, on the other hand I'm surprised about the conflict.

Question: But you avoided my question. What do you think of the fact that Germany wants to introduce the blessing for homosexual couples on its own initiative, without consulting Rome?

Martin: Yes, maybe I should hold back. Otherwise I would have to say that the German bishops are wrong or the Vatican is wrong. I don't want to get involved and really avoid answering.

But what I can say is that I am glad that people in Germany listen to the voice of God's people. Let me put it this way, as a Jesuit and a priest: if the Vatican banned me from doing something, I wouldn't do it. But that's another level. Again: I am not the German church. We'll see where this all leads.

Question: Perhaps the conflict also has something to do with the different mentalities. The Germans always want to be overly correct and have a document with footnotes for everything, while in other countries you might just do it without starting the big discussion first.

Martin: Yes, I'm glad you said it like that, I can't really criticize German culture like that. I've also heard it said that in Italy, and to some extent also in the Vatican, rules are seen more as goals. In Germany and other Western countries, rules are the basis of action. We will see. In any case, I'm very curious to see how this turns out. So far I have no clue.

Source