Cardinal Kasper on the great crisis in the Church and the delusions of the Synodal Path

Today Cardinal Kasper celebrates his 90th birthday. He was a Professor and Bishop in Germany. Then it was off to the Vatican for him. There, he reports in an interview, there is shaking of heads about the German situation. As a connoisseur of both worlds, he tries to "explain some things" to his colleagues in the cardinalate.

On Sunday (5 March), Cardinal Walter Kasper will be 90 years old. Even in retirement, he is one of the influential Germans in the Vatican. In an interview with the Catholic News Agency (KNA), he analyses the situation there and developments in Germany. 

Question: Cardinal, when you look back on 90 years of life, what particularly moves you? 

Kasper: Above all, gratitude. For the fact that I am still relatively healthy, that I can still do everything on my own, that is not a matter of course at this age. And for all that I have been able to experience in these years. 

Question: One of these experiences was the Second Vatican Council 60 years ago. What do you remember? 

Kasper: It was a time of new beginnings! It was a pure surprise when we heard on the news that John XXIII had announced an ecumenical council. I was at the University of Tübingen at the time, where I did my doctorate and later habilitated. The Council led to a great enthusiasm, that was a great time for me too. So much changed. Those who claim that the Church cannot be reformed should bear this profound change in mind! I experienced it. Back then, people liked being Catholic, doors opened. Suddenly Catholic and Protestant theologians were able to meet and discuss with each other, there was nothing like that before. Once a month we met, Küng, Moltmann, Jüngel and I, first for dinner, and then we drank wine and discussed intensively until after midnight. That was a great time. 

Question: But that didn't stop you from later arguing for Küng's expulsion from the Faculty of Theology. 

Kapser: Those were the most difficult weeks in my academic career. I had a collegial relationship with him and had learned a lot from him. But then I disagreed with him on crucial points. Before his teaching licence was revoked, the Faculty was divided, some protested against it, others thought it was justified in terms of content. I was one of them. But the decision was made by others. What I disliked most of all was how Küng tactically and publicly polemicised - he was just a stubborn Swiss. 

Question: Back to the Council: 60 years later, it seems that important questions that are topical today were not dealt with at that time. 

Kasper: Very important questions were dealt with, but of course not all of them. For example, the Council put the interaction between bishops and pope, but also between laity and clergy, on a new theological footing. But it did not clarify exactly how this should work. And now Pope Francis wants to clarify that with the Synod on Synodality. By the way, this is actually a very conservative reform, because synods have been part of the life of the Church from the beginning. After the Middle Ages, this went somewhat underground, and now it is being revived in a new way. Incidentally, lay people, such as the princes, also had a great deal of influence at synods in earlier times.

For Pope Francis, synodality is "what God expects of the Church of the third millennium". And that is causing quite a stir. Not least because it seems to be disputed who should decide on what or only advise. What is the role of the bishops? What role for the laity? A look at Vatican synodal thinking.

Kasper: And what new topics have been added? The women's issue, the issue of sexual identity and orientation?

Kasper: The Council has already said a lot about the women's question, especially with regard to the position of women in society. But the women's question within the Church was neglected at that time, and now it is falling at our feet. It is the same with other issues. Same-sex relationships were generally still taboo at that time. It only came into view after 1968, after the Council. 

Question: One person who took up these issues later was your student, the moral theologian, Eberhard Schockenhoff, who died in 2020. He was a pioneer for the Synodal Path in Germany on these issues. What was your relationship with him? 

Kasper: We were friends. Whenever he came to Rome, we had an intensive exchange. We didn't always see eye to eye. But when he moved on, it was in a very solid way. I read large chunks of his posthumously published book on sexual ethics. That was already a clear rethinking - but it did not go as far as it does now in the Synodal Path. These were openings, but always biblically and traditionally based. It is missing now, also to give the Synodal Way a good theological foundation. 

Question: Which brings us to the Synodal Path. What do you think? Where does it lead? 

Kasper: I am afraid that we are under some illusions at the moment. I think it is completely out of the question that the decisions of the Synodal Path could be accepted in the universal Church. Of course, there are individuals in other countries who think similarly. But that is far from being a majority. That applies to the ordination of women, for example. Or the idea of democratic co-determination in the leadership of the church. The Church is not a democracy! Especially on this issue, many things have not been thought through theologically or from the perspective of tradition. You cannot reinvent the Church. 

Question: Other bishops and cardinals are now warning of a schism. Is that also your fear? 

Kasper: The Synodal Path emphasises again and again that it does not want a schism, and I believe them. But one can also stumble into a schism. It is similar to the way the great powers stumbled into the First World War, although nobody really wanted it. They should take that seriously. And the questions that come from other bishops' conferences should also be taken seriously in Germany and not be presented as if they already know the truth. That always makes Germans unpopular abroad. When I meet cardinals here in Rome, they shake their heads at the Germans. Then I also try to explain some things. 

Question: A week after your 90th birthday, it is the 10th anniversary of the election of Pope Francis. I assume you were in favour of him at the time. Have you ever regretted that? 

Kasper: I stand by Pope Francis. That doesn't mean that I think every word or measure he says is right. But when a Pope is elected, the principle of loyalty applies, especially in the Curia, otherwise it doesn't work. At the moment, I don't meet him as often as I used to, but whenever he calls me, I go and also give him advice if he asks for it. He is under pressure from two sides: there are the conservatives, who rejected his way from the beginning, and now there is also criticism from the other side in the West, for example in Germany, who are pushing for reforms. But he is a man of the South, very different concerns are important to him, you have to realise that. What he has initiated will take another pontificate or two before it is fully implemented. I hope that after him someone will come who will implement these impulses in his own way. 

Question: Some reformers think that change is the best answer to the massive church crisis of this time. How do you see that?

Kasper: The Church is in a very deep crisis. Not to see that would be foolish. And the cause is not only the abuse scandal. The crisis goes much further and deeper. It affects the entire Western world. The Church is undergoing an epochal upheaval. You cannot simply carry on as before, that is indisputable. But none of us knows what the future of the Church will look like in detail. All I know is that if I hadn't experienced the awakening of the Council at that time, I would hardly be able to endure this crisis. But I believe that it is now the task of a new generation in the Church to give the answers. 

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