Curial Cardinal on Latin Mass - "It would certainly be desirable to reopen the now closed door"

Curia Cardinal Kurt Koch: "Pope Leo has an inner relationship with the Eastern Churches"

Koch on the future of ecumenism in the pontificate of Leo XIV, on Orthodox reactions to "Fiducia supplicans," on papal primacy, synodality, and possible developments in the extraordinary liturgy. kath.net interview by Michael Hesemann

"We have a great deal in common with the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox Churches in terms of faith and understanding of the Church. The central question is that of the Petrine office. There, too, there is a good starting point, since the Orthodox recognize a hierarchy of bishoprics in which Rome takes first place. The open question, however, is what powers the Bishop of Rome has – is it a purely honorary primacy, or are certain duties and rights associated with it?" This is what Cardinal Kurt Koch stated in a kath.net interview. Where does ecumenical dialogue stand after the pontificate of Pope Francis? And how will it develop under Leo XIV? Michael Hesemann discussed these and other questions with Cardinal Kurt Koch, Prefect of the Dicastery for Promoting Christian Unity and thus the Holy Father's "Ecumenical Commissioner." The Swiss-born cardinal has been Prefect of the Dicastery for Promoting Christian Unity since 2010. Previously, he served as Bishop of Basel from 1996 and President of the Swiss Bishops' Conference from 2007 to 2009. He is the author of many books.

Michael Hesemann: Your Eminence, Pope Leo's first two meetings with the honorary head of Orthodoxy, the Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew I, and the planned papal visit to Turkey for the 1700th anniversary of the Council of Nicaea, bring ecumenism, dialogue, and reconciliation with the Eastern churches, back into focus. But before we turn to Pope Leo, let's look back at the last pontificate, to Pope Francis. What did his pontificate bring to ecumenism? How has progress been made on ecumenical issues?

Cardinal Koch: Two aspects in particular are worth highlighting with Pope Francis. First, the direct encounter with representatives of other churches. He always used the threefold formula: "walk together, pray together, work together." This was his priority, as were the friendly relations with other Christian churches.

Second, there is the so-called "ecumenism of blood," a term he coined following Pope John Paul II. The conviction behind it is that there are many martyrs today, and that all Christian churches have their martyrs. Christians are not persecuted because they are Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, but because they are Christians. The blood of the martyrs unites us—it does not divide us.

Pope Francis placed great importance on this. He once said to me, humorously yet seriously: "Don't you also think that the persecutors of Christians have a better ecumenical vision than we do? Because they know that we are one." I think that was very important to him.

Hesemann: Ecumenism went so far that, for example, the Coptic Pope Tawadros held an audience with Pope Francis in St. Peter's Square. However, the document "Fiducia supplicans" marked a slight setback. How would you assess this? What might this mean for the new pontificate? Does "Fiducia supplicans" need to be put into perspective, or how can this hurdle be overcome?

Cardinal Koch: It was indeed a difficult situation. Last year, we were able to look back on 20 years of ecumenical dialogue with the Oriental Orthodox Churches. The Plenary Assembly in January was scheduled to discuss Mary and Marian devotion. However, the Oriental Churches wanted to discuss exclusively "Fiducia supplicans." I tried to invite Cardinal Fernández, but due to his dicastery's plenary session, this was not possible. He later traveled to Cairo and spoke personally with the Patriarch. We then decided to hold separate meetings at the beginning of this year: the Catholics and the Orientals alone. I am now awaiting the reports, hoping to be able to resume the dialogue.

Regarding "Fiducia supplicans," the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith is responsible. There have also been major reservations from the Catholic side, especially from the African bishops. They view "Fiducia supplicans" not only with regard to homosexual relationships, but also consider other non-canonical relationships, especially polygamy, which is absolutely unacceptable to them.

Hesemann: A conference recently took place in Vienna where the question of the so-called Great Schism between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches of 1054 was discussed. Was it a schism at all, or rather a deepening of the estrangement? How would you comment on that?

Cardinal Koch: One must assume that the excommunications of 1054 were not excommunications of the Churches. Cardinal Humbert of Silva Candida excommunicated Patriarch Michael, and the Patriarch excommunicated the Cardinal. According to Catholic belief, excommunications end with the death of those affected. So, it was not an excommunication of the Churches as such. This was perhaps somewhat misunderstood in 1965, when Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras consigned the excommunications of 1054 to "historical oblivion." In this sense, one cannot speak of a schism. I share the conviction of Professor Larentzakis from Graz, and Patriarch Bartholomew also mentioned this in his welcoming address in Vienna.

Hesemann: How can this alienation be overcome?

Cardinal Koch: By getting to know each other personally, especially where one is most intensely Catholic or Orthodox – namely in the liturgy. It is a fundamental law of learning psychology that emotions cannot be overcome with information alone, however good the information may be. It requires a positive emotional experience, especially the realization that both sides are Christians and both love Christ. Therefore, the dialogue of love is very important for getting to know each other on a deeper level.

Hesemann: In his address to the Eastern Churches, Pope Leo emphasized the importance of the diversity of liturgies. There is also a certain diversity within the Roman Catholic tradition, namely the "old" Tridentine Mass and the post-conciliar regular Mass, the Novus Ordo. Pope Francis was notoriously no friend of the old Tridentine Mass and severely restricted it. Do you think Pope Leo will be more open in this regard and could also be more inclusive of adherents of the traditional liturgy?

Cardinal Koch: I haven't spoken to Pope Leo about this and don't want to raise false hopes. Personally, I would welcome it if we could find a good way forward here. Pope Benedict XVI pointed the way in a helpful direction by being convinced that something that has been practiced for centuries cannot simply be banned. That convinced me. Pope Francis has chosen a very restrictive approach in this regard. It would certainly be desirable to reopen the now closed door.

Hesemann: In 2025, in addition to the Jubilee of Nicaea, there will be another significant event: the common Easter celebration, which only occurs every few years. Pope Francis has stated several times that he can imagine a step toward a common Easter date. Do you think Pope Leo will continue in this direction? What is your personal opinion on this?

Cardinal Koch: The Second Vatican Council already declared in an appendix to the liturgical constitution "Sacrosanctum Concilium" that the Catholic Church is open to this question and would take a decision if all other Christian churches agree. Pope Francis has continued this position, and Pope Leo XIV has also expressed himself along these lines. My main concern is that we seek a common date, but in doing so, we should not cause new divisions within the individual churches and within the ecumenical community. It would be desirable and important to find a common date for Easter, but only if it does not lead to new divisions.

Hesemann: In his first address on the loggia of St. Peter's Basilica, Pope Leo already spoke of synodality—a term we know well from the Orthodox churches. The Germans associate it with their "Synodal Path," which is certainly not what Pope Leo meant. Can you explain for our readers the difference between synodality, as Pope Leo understands it, and the "Synodal Path" of the German bishops?

Cardinal Koch: Pope Leo himself provided the key in his address when he said he was a disciple of Saint Augustine, namely an Augustinian. At his episcopal ordination, Augustine used the helpful phrase: "With you I am a Christian, for you I am a bishop." The entire concept of synodality lies in this tension between "being with you" through baptism and "being for you" through ordination.

Synodality is not opposed to hierarchy; rather, the two are interdependent. There is no synodality without primacy and no primacy without synodality. Pope Francis has always emphasized that synodality is not parliamentarism. The prototype of synodality is the Holy Spirit. Pope Leo will also continue along these lines. In his address, he also made it clear that his primary concern is a missionary and therefore synodal Church. For synodality is at the service of mission.

Hesemann: Would you describe Pope Leo XIV as a friend of Orthodoxy?

Cardinal Koch: Yes, one could say so. This was also evident in his address to the Eastern Catholic Churches. He has an inner connection to the Eastern world. What he said about the Eastern Catholic Churches applies analogously to the Oriental Orthodox Churches.

Hesemann: How far are we on the path to communion with the various Orthodox Churches? In some cases, such as Armenia, there have already been corresponding experiences. What is the current status?

Cardinal Koch: We have a great deal in common with the Oriental Orthodox and the Orthodox Churches in terms of faith and understanding of the Church. The central question is that of the Petrine office. There, too, there is a good starting point, since the Orthodox recognize a hierarchy of bishoprics, with Rome at the top. The open question, however, is what powers the Bishop of Rome has – is it purely an honorary primacy, or are specific duties and rights associated with it? In 1995, Pope John Paul II invited all Christian churches to jointly develop a practice of primacy so that the Petrine office would no longer be an obstacle, but rather a help on the path to unity. Last year, our Dicastery published a document on this topic, which was distributed to all Christian churches. As soon as we receive the answers, we will compile a summary and discuss with Pope Leo how to proceed.

Hesemann: The Orthodox don't always agree among themselves either, for example, regarding the honorary primacy. How does this affect the dialogue with Rome?

Cardinal Koch: That is indeed a major problem. While we seek unity with the Orthodox, new divisions are emerging within the Orthodox Church, for example, regarding the declaration of autocephaly of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine. This issue is controversial within the Orthodox Church. However, it is crucial for our ecumenical dialogue that we conduct it jointly with all canonical Orthodox churches, as the Orthodox churches themselves wish.

Hesemann: How do you see the chances that Rome could act as a mediator within the divisions within Orthodoxy?

Cardinal Koch: That's not easy. Even before the war in Ukraine, relations between Moscow and Constantinople were difficult. The war has made the situation even more difficult. Rome can only act as a mediator if the various parties to the conflict want it. At the moment, it doesn't look that way.

Hesemann: What is the state of ecumenism with Protestants, especially in Germany?

Cardinal Koch: We don't conduct dialogues at the national level; that is the task of the bishops' conferences. Our dialogue takes place with world federations, such as the Lutheran World Federation. Lutheranism in Germany is a special case in this regard. There is the United Evangelical Lutheran Church (VELKD), which in turn is a member of the EKD. While the VELKD (German Catholic Church in Germany) stands on the Augsburg Confession, this is not part of the confessional foundations of the EKD (Evangelical Church in Germany). Then there is the National Committee of the Lutheran World Federation. We are currently beginning a new phase of dialogue with the Lutheran World Federation in the hope that a joint reading of the Augsburg Confession will lead to further steps toward an understanding of the church.

Hesemann: Thank you, Your Eminence!

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