Must have more ecumenism!
The "popular" (Cathcon- my ironic quotation marks) church movement "We Are Church" has criticized prior to the Pope's visit to Germany the "lack of readiness of the Catholic Church for ecumenism." They also take a position on the growing criticism that the cost of the Pope's visit are too high.
Ahead of the visit to Germany by Pope Benedict XVI on 22 to 25 September popular church movement "We Are Church" has criticised the "lack of readiness of the Catholic Church for ecumenism." "If the Pope's visit promotes dialogue within our church and there is progress in ecumenism with the Protestant church, then it is money well spent," said spokesman Christian Weisner to the "Rhein-Zeitung" (Friday edition). He has taken this position to the growing criticism that the costs for the visit of 25 to 30 million euros were too high. Yet his expectations are limited, Weisner said. "I hope that from the ecumenical meeting in Erfurt, which according to the programme only 35 minutes are provided, something can be really got moving." The question is whether this visit will only be a sermon trip, or also one which provides for listening to eachother.
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First of all thanks for sharing this view. I think this ecumenism will not remain just a sermon trip, there should be intellectual sharing and listening too.
According to Vatican Council II the ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith and the baptism of water for all. This is the defacto and explicit means.
False Ecumenism is based on irrational non Catholic interpretations contrary to Vatican Council II, the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus, the statements of popes and saints. It suggests those who know about the Catholic Church and do not enter is the only ordinary means of salvation.It also assumes that these cases are known to us.
Is 'Ecumenism' a Bad Word? by Matt C. Abbott in Catholic Culture suggests ‘they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ’ do not enter it ’(LG 16) is the ordinary means of salvation and the only means of salvation. Catholic Culture also implies that these cases are explicit and we can personally know such cases.
The Catechism quotes Vatican II’s Lumen Gentium on this subject: “Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation…. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it. This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and His Church” (nn. 846-847).-Abbot,Catholic Culture.
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Let us analyse Lumen Gentium 14, Vatican Council II.(1)The passages emphasized in yellow tells us that Catholic faith and the baptism of water are the ordinary means of salvation for all. The passages in red mention those who are lost and are known only to God. The passage in green mentions those who can be saved and are known only to God and this passage does not claim that these non Catholics are de facto known to us or that they are exceptions to the passage in yellow or the dogma.The passage in yellow is defacto and that in green is de jure. When we read magisterial texts like the one above we have to use the defacto-dejure distinction otherwise there will be confusion. If you consider the passage in green as defacto it would contradict the passage in yellow.
Here is Ad Gentes 7,Vatican Council II analysed in the same way (2).The text emphasized in yellow tells us that Catholic faith and the baptism of water are the ordinary means of salvation for all. The passage in red mentions those who are lost and are known only to God. The passage in green mentions those who can be saved and are known only to God and this passage does not claim that these non Catholics are de facto known to us or that they are exceptions to the passage in yellow or the dogma.
The passage in yellow is defacto and that in green is de jure. When we read magisterial texts like the one above we have to use the defacto-dejure distinction otherwise there will be confusion. If you consider the passage in green as defacto it would contradict the passage in yellow.
Catholics seminarians who study Philosophy for two years are taught the Principle of Non Contradiction and are familiar with the defacto-dejure logic. If the passage in green is defacto and explicitly known to us as Catholic Culture,Trinity Communications and EWTN suggest, it would contradict the Principle of Non Contradiction. Even a Catholic layman would know that this is irrational. -Lionel Andrades
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1.
14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart… Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own...
2.
7. This missionary activity derives its reason from the will of God, "who wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, Himself a man, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim. 2:45), "neither is there salvation in any other" (Acts 4:12). Therefore, all must be converted to Him, made known by the Church's preaching, and all must be incorporated into Him by baptism and into the Church which is His body. For Christ Himself "by stressing in express language the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mark 16:16; John 3:5), at the same time confirmed the necessity of the Church, into which men enter by baptism, as by a door. Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it." Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity…
CATHOLIC CULTURE SUGGESTS THOSE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE OR THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE ARE EXPLICITLY KNOWN
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-that-those.html
MEDUGORJE BANS BOOK IN WHICH JESUS SAYS CHURCH IS NEGLECTING MISSION AND PROCLAIMING THE GOSPEL TO PROTECT ITS PROPERTY AND INTERESTS
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/medugorje-bans-book-in-which-jesus-says.html
LEGIONARY OF CHRIST PRIEST FR.RAFAEL PASCUAL AFFIRMS CANTATE DOMINO, COUNCIL OF FLORENCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/legionary-of-christ-priest-frrafael.html
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/catholic-culture-suggests-those-who.html#links
CATHOLIC BISHOPS CONFERENCE OF ENGLAND AND WALES SAYS THOSE SAVED WITH THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE, INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE ARE VISIBLE TO US
Fr.Leonard Feeney was excommunicated it is suggested for repeating the same teaching of the popes, Councils, saints and the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus thrice-defined.
The Bishops Conference of England and Wales has placed the book Muslims Ask, Christian answer in the section Resources, on its website. (Dialogue With Other Religions/Committee for Relations with other Other Religions). This book by the Jesuit Christian Troll interprets Vatican Council II (LG 16) as referring to cases of invincible ignorance being explicit and known to us. LG 16 contradicts the ex cathedra dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/bishops-conference-of-england-and-wales.html
It means every one needs to enter the Church for salvation in the present times but there could be exceptions like those saved in invincible ignorance (LG 16). Cases of those saved in invincible ignorance it is assumed are visible to us and so they are an exception to the dogma.The dogma indicates everyone needs to be an explicit, visible member of the church to go to Heaven.
If those saved in invincible ignorance were implicit for the English bishops it would not contradict the dogma.It would not be an exception. Since it is allegedly explicitly known, it is an exception to the dogma.
So in inter religious dialogue it is assumed by the CBCEW that those saved in invincible ignorance are known to us in the present times.Those who have not had the Gsopel preached to them through no fault of their own and are saved are known to us in the present time ?!
In another report on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales titled Catholics and Other Faiths the error is repeated. Archbishop Emeritus Kevin McDonald of Southwark who is the Chair of the Committe for Relations with Other Religions states that the ‘seeds of the Word’ are present in other religions(1).Theoretically, as a possibility this is acceptable. However the bishop is implying that we know of particular cases so every non Catholic with no exception does not have to enter the Church for salvation.He is implying that this is an exception to the dogma.This is the rejection of the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Vatican Council II (Lumen Gentium 14, Ad Gentes 7).
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Similarly the Vocation Director of Southwark, England Fr. Stephen Langley has said that candidates with a religious vocation to the diocese would have to accept the doctrine extra ecclesiam nulla salus but the doctrine should not be interpreted in 'the narrow Feenyite sense’.
Young Catholics in England would have to say that everyone needs to enter the Church for salvation in the present times but there could be defacto exceptions like those saved with the baptism of desire. The baptism of desire is assumed to be visible and so is an exception to the dogma.The dogma indicates everyone needs to be an explicit, visible member of the church to go to Heaven.
If the baptism of desire was implicit for candidates it would not contradict the dogma, it would not be an exception. Since it is allegedly explicitly known, it is an exception to the dogma. Candidates with a religious vocation would be accepted who presumably could 'spot' these rare exceptional cases.Those who cannot do so will not be able to priests and nuns.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/vocation-director-in-southwarkengland.html
The Vocation Director at Southwark also has implied that the Catholic Church has condemned the ‘narrow Feenyite sense’. However there is no ‘condemnation’ mentioned in the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. Pope Pius XII in the Letter of the Holy Office referred to ‘the dogma’, the ‘infallible statement’. The dogma like the popes, Church Councils and saints indicate that all non Catholics in Boston,USA need to convert into the Catholic Church to avoid the fires of Hell. This was exactly the teaching of Fr. Leonard Feeney who was not excommunicated for heresy but for disobedience. The excommunication was lifted by the Church without him having to recant.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/25059967/Peter-Vere-Canon-Lawyer-on-the-status-of-those-who-hold-Fr-Leonard-Feeney-s-Doctrinal-Position
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So candidates with a religious vocation in England would have to accept also that Fr. Leonard Feeney was ‘condemned’ for holding the same view as the popes, including Pope Pius XII, who referred to 'the dogma', the saints and the dogma itself.
This is the teaching of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales in inter faith dialogue, for candidates with religious vocations and at the Catholic seminaries in Rome like the English and Beda College.
This new visible baptism of desire doctrine contradicts magisterial documents.It is also irrational. (a) No one knows of a particular case of someone being saved with the baptism of desire and (b) Fr.Leonard Feeney was not excommunicated for repeating the same teaching of the popes, Councils, saints and the thrice-defined dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
-Lionel Andrades
1.
As Catholics we believe that Christ lived, died and rose from the dead for all people and thatGod’s plan of love embraces the whole of creation. We can joyfully accept ,as was recognized by the Fathers of the Church,that other religions contain elements of truth that we find in Christ.The Fathers of the Church called these elements “seeds of the Word”.The Vatican Council II attributed the positive values present in other religious traditons to the actibe presence of God through through his Word,pointing also to the universal action of the Spirit “at work in the world before Christ was glorified”.(Ad Gentes n.4).-Catholics and Other Faiths report on the website of the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales
BISHOPS CONFERENCE OF ENGLAND AND WALES SAYS LUMEN GENTIUM 16 REFERS TO EXPLICITLY KNOWN CASES OF NON CATHOLIC SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/bishops-conference-of-england-and-wales.html
Archbishop Emeritus Kevin McDonald of Southwark implies the 'seeds of the Word' in other religions is the ordinary means of salvation and these exceptions are explicitly known
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/archbishop-emeritus-kevin-mcdonald-of.html
NON CATHOLICS CAN BE SAVED IN INVINCIBLE IGNORANCE, BAPTISM OF DESIRE AND IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS- Daphne McLeod, Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice, England
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/10/non-catholics-can-be-saved-in.html
CATHOLIC HERALD, DAILY TELEGRAPH CENSORSHIP OF THE DOGMA CONTROVERSY: NO ADS ACCEPTED
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/catholic-herald-daily-telegraph.html
USCCB, CCBEW, CATHOLIC ANSWERS, CUF IMPLY POPE PIUS XII SUGGESTED IN THE LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE THAT THE BAPTISM OF DESIRE WAS AN EXCEPTION TO THE DOGMA EXTRA ECCLESIAM NULLA SALUS
This is false. The letter refers to the dogma and indicates that de facto everyone needs to enter the Church and it also mentions that de jure a non Catholic can be saved with the baptism of desire. The Letter was critical of the Archbishop of Boston who indicated that those saved with the baptism of desire are defacto cases, known and visible. The Letter supports Fr. Leonard Feeney on doctrine.
For the baptism of desire to be an exception to the dogma outside the church there is no salvation it would have to be visible and known. Implicit unknown to us baptism of desire is not an exception to the dogma which indicates every one must me a visible member of the Church.
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The Letter mentions 'the dogma', 'the infallible statement' and affirms the baptism of desire. It does not imply that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma since the baptism of desire is always implicit .God accepts an implicit desire he can also save someone in implicit invincible ignorance. So implicit baptism of desire or invincible ignorance cannot be an exception to the dogma. The dogma refers to all people needing to defacto enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
There are those who are members of the Church as taught by the dogma and there are those who are united to the Church only by desire. They are defacto members who have Catholic Faith and have received the baptism of water. Those who have received the baptism of desire are de jure in principle united to the Church only by desire. These cases are known only to God.
The Letter of the Holy Office during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was addressed to the Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Richard Cushing directly and not to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
It was because the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits, who implied wrongly, that these cases could be exceptions to the dogma and to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
It was the Archbishop who believed like the Jesuits at Boston College that every one with no exception does not have to enter the Church for salvation. The Archbishop believed that there could be non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance. Implying, of course, that these cases are visible, explicit and known to us and so are an exception to the dogma.
The Letter affirms ‘the dogma’ as did Fr. Leonard Feeney. The dogma does not mention any exceptions and neither does Fr. Leonard Feeney. The Letter seems to refer to the issue of the baptism of desire being implied as an exception to the dogma. It is only in reference to the error of the Archbishop and the Jesuits at Boston College.
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The Letter mentions 'the dogma', 'the infallible statement' and affirms the baptism of desire. It does not imply that the baptism of desire is an exception to the dogma since the baptism of desire is always implicit .God accepts an implicit desire he can also save someone in implicit invincible ignorance. So implicit baptism of desire or invincible ignorance cannot be an exception to the dogma. The dogma refers to all people needing to defacto enter the Catholic Church for salvation.
There are those who are members of the Church as taught by the dogma and there are those who are united to the Church only by desire. They are defacto members who have Catholic Faith and have received the baptism of water. Those who have received the baptism of desire are de jure in principle united to the Church only by desire. These cases are known only to God.
The Letter of the Holy Office during the pontificate of Pope Pius XII was addressed to the Archbishop of Boston Cardinal Richard Cushing directly and not to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
It was because the Archbishop of Boston and the Jesuits, who implied wrongly, that these cases could be exceptions to the dogma and to Fr. Leonard Feeney.
It was the Archbishop who believed like the Jesuits at Boston College that every one with no exception does not have to enter the Church for salvation. The Archbishop believed that there could be non Catholics saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance. Implying, of course, that these cases are visible, explicit and known to us and so are an exception to the dogma.
The Letter affirms ‘the dogma’ as did Fr. Leonard Feeney. The dogma does not mention any exceptions and neither does Fr. Leonard Feeney. The Letter seems to refer to the issue of the baptism of desire being implied as an exception to the dogma. It is only in reference to the error of the Archbishop and the Jesuits at Boston College.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.com/2011/11/usccb-ccbew-catholic-answers-cuf-imply.html